I'm not sure I'd characterize Dean as low self esteem. I'd say family always come first and foremost for him, for a variety of reasons. This does mean that his own personal wants and needs are always way down on the list.
As far as John, he certainly loved his kids. But he was always boderline abusive, definitely neglectful. At the same time, it's likely what kept them all alive.
This does mean that his own personal wants and needs are always way down on the list.
Oh, no question. It's cause I'm arguing, not effect. I just remember last season when people were using Dean's deal with the Crossroads demon as evidence that Dean has a death wish. He doesn't, and I think this episode made that clear. It's not that he wants to die. It was never about that. It's that he will do ANYTHING for Sam because his family does come before everything else. And yeah, that's because of his issues and the fact that his family was ripped apart when he was so young and then everything was so unstable. It makes sense that he would crave some stability. I don't think it means he hates himself or his life. It just means that he never had that, so he is going to hold on to whatever he does have no matter what it costs him
( ... )
I agree completely with what you're saying about Dean.
As far as John, I do sympathize with him. but I am also glad he's not my dad! Quite a while ago I did a post comparing him to Holltz which I still stand by. To me, the biggest difference is, if push cane to shove, John would choose his kids over his obsession. (Well I think he would. **g**)
Have you read any of big-pinks fics? She completely nails John.
Oh, and I meant to say something about Torchwood! I definitely see the longing looks and mooning that Jack seems to have going over Gwen. (Much, much more so than I ever saw in Angel). But I don't see those kind of looks regarding Ianto. What gives, Torchwood? Stop confusing me.
Oh, yeah. I wouldn't want John as my father either. Yikes. I definitely think he would, if it came down to it, choose his kids over his obsession, but he's pretty obsessed. It's weird how fandom seems to, for the most part, go to one extreme or the other. I hate the John bashing that I see. I really do. But then there are the people who seem to think that he should be sainted or something. And yeah, not so much.
I haven't read big_pink's fic, I don't think, but I'll check them out.
I agree that there's way more Jack/Gwen than there was Angel/Cordy (until we got smacked with it). And yes, there is lots of mooning. It is strange. I really hope it gets dealt with explicitly. They can only keep us guessing for so long.
Yes, yes, yes, to everything that you have said about Torchwood. Jack and Gwen are amazing together. Jack/Gwen, DO NOT WANT. I wanted to see a bit more with the Gwen/Rhys vs. Jack/Ianto parallel, too. I wish they had made it just a liiitle bit more explicit that Jack finally comes out from behind the crate (or whatever) when Ianto is actively taken hostage and Dale's rage is focused solely on him. Just a quick flash of something. This show, man. It makes me work so hard to connect the dots. But then, the dots they give me are so shiny!
Jack and Gwen are amazing together. Jack/Gwen, DO NOT WANT.
Yes, exactly. I love their platonic dynamic. Unfortunately, that dynamic seems to exist mostly in my head? I don't know.
I wish they had made it just a liiitle bit more explicit that Jack finally comes out from behind the crate (or whatever) when Ianto is actively taken hostage
Yeah. It was there, I just wish it had been a little bit more there. I want to connect the dots! But they need to give me more dots!
I also find Jack/Gwen a little strange, but only because I am waiting for Marsters to come back and tempt Jack over to the dark side. I pretty much ship everyone/anyone.
Am I the only fan who finds Gwen/Owen unbearably hot? And Gwen/Rhys unbearably dull? Owen is such an ass, and Gwen is so much better than him, and yet when they're together I cannot look away!
Also, I watched "Captain Jack Harkness" over the weekend and now I am having inklings of Owen/Ianto. I mean, Ianto SHOOTS OWEN IN THE BACK. It's twu wuv!
I don't know why Jack/Gwen just does not work for me, but it just really, really doesn't. As for Gwen/Owen, I'm sure you're not the only one? I just spent most of last season wishing Owen would die in a fire, so I wasn't really shipping him with anyone. Ianto shooting him was cool though. I could totally get behind that if it was done right.
I'm so, so glad that Torchwood is acknowledging some of the problems with Gwyn's character. I have Mindwipe Issues, and so I'm definitely glad that she's unwilling to erase any more of his memories at this point.
Martha should show up and make-out with Tosh.
OMG yes!
EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING is ALWAYS about his family.
Actually I think you are quite right about this. For Dean, there is nothing else. Ow, my heart.
I took Dean's outburst about John to be pure frustration and actually a rebuttal of the point that alterna!Dean was making about Dean's self-loathing
Absolutely. I wasn't expecting fandom to take it that way but, for me? Absolutely. No question about it and I totally spazzed out that the show went there and made that point. Of course it's a huge thing. Of course there's resentment. Hell, man, resentment is at the heart of it. In a way, Dean builds himself up around that. Builds himself to prove that yes, he is good enough, strong enough, *better* actually. "That was his crap, he was the one who couldn't save Mom! I was always there!" Dean *knows* he's good enough. But of course it makes sense that alterna!demon!Dean goes for that soft soft because it's the basic insecurity that lies at the root of it all, that everything else was built upon. It doesn't negate the fact that Dean knows he's good enough *anyway
( ... )
Dean *knows* he's good enough. But of course it makes sense that alterna!demon!Dean goes for that soft soft because it's the basic insecurity that lies at the root of it all, that everything else was built upon. It doesn't negate the fact that Dean knows he's good enough *anyway*.
Right. It just read so clearly that way to me that I was very surprised to see people reading it as verification of Dean's self-loathing. I . . . just didn't get that at all.
I'd like also to mention that all the self-sacrificing does have a selfish element to it. Oh, no question. And Dean consciously knows it too. Sam called Dean on that at the beginning of the season, didn't he? (It's been awhile since I watched those episodes
( ... )
I haven't perused outside my f-list but I'm not surprised if that's reaction. Fandom has... some weird views and interpretations when it comes to Dean from what I've seen. To me it reads disturbingly as a lot of projected victimization and it... well, it's disturbing.
Sam did call him on it. I can't say which episode or the exact words but I seem to remember something along the lines of "you have to let me go" which really made the bells ring at the time (because Sam did leave once already and shouldn't there be resentment there on that front too? They haven't gone into this *yet* but man, inquiring minds want to know.)
And then this feeds onto the final scene. It takes the whole dream sequence to crack Dean open and Dean opening up to Sam like that comes from Dean being at the end of his rope. He has no options and *has* to turn to Sam, has to put his faith on Sam, and oh man, how dangerous is *all* of that? (I may have more to say on this but I still have to put my thoughts in order.)
Sam did leave once already and shouldn't there be resentment there on that front too? They haven't gone into this *yet*
Not yet, no. But knowing SPN they probably will.
And dangerous, definitely. This season is all about role reversal and Sam saving Dean. (Not explicitly with the possibility of Sam having to kill Dean, but the demon-were-once-hellbound-humans thing opens up elements of that.) I know a lot of people are disappointed, but I'm still loving it and I can't wait to see where they go. (I have, like, symmetry kink or something. This show serves me well).
I would definitely like to read the rest of your thoughts once they're in order!
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As far as John, he certainly loved his kids. But he was always boderline abusive, definitely neglectful. At the same time, it's likely what kept them all alive.
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Oh, no question. It's cause I'm arguing, not effect. I just remember last season when people were using Dean's deal with the Crossroads demon as evidence that Dean has a death wish. He doesn't, and I think this episode made that clear. It's not that he wants to die. It was never about that. It's that he will do ANYTHING for Sam because his family does come before everything else. And yeah, that's because of his issues and the fact that his family was ripped apart when he was so young and then everything was so unstable. It makes sense that he would crave some stability. I don't think it means he hates himself or his life. It just means that he never had that, so he is going to hold on to whatever he does have no matter what it costs him ( ... )
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As far as John, I do sympathize with him. but I am also glad he's not my dad! Quite a while ago I did a post comparing him to Holltz which I still stand by. To me, the biggest difference is, if push cane to shove, John would choose his kids over his obsession. (Well I think he would. **g**)
Have you read any of big-pinks fics? She completely nails John.
Oh, and I meant to say something about Torchwood! I definitely see the longing looks and mooning that Jack seems to have going over Gwen. (Much, much more so than I ever saw in Angel). But I don't see those kind of looks regarding Ianto. What gives, Torchwood? Stop confusing me.
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I haven't read big_pink's fic, I don't think, but I'll check them out.
I agree that there's way more Jack/Gwen than there was Angel/Cordy (until we got smacked with it). And yes, there is lots of mooning. It is strange. I really hope it gets dealt with explicitly. They can only keep us guessing for so long.
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Yes, exactly. I love their platonic dynamic. Unfortunately, that dynamic seems to exist mostly in my head? I don't know.
I wish they had made it just a liiitle bit more explicit that Jack finally comes out from behind the crate (or whatever) when Ianto is actively taken hostage
Yeah. It was there, I just wish it had been a little bit more there. I want to connect the dots! But they need to give me more dots!
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Am I the only fan who finds Gwen/Owen unbearably hot? And Gwen/Rhys unbearably dull? Owen is such an ass, and Gwen is so much better than him, and yet when they're together I cannot look away!
Also, I watched "Captain Jack Harkness" over the weekend and now I am having inklings of Owen/Ianto. I mean, Ianto SHOOTS OWEN IN THE BACK. It's twu wuv!
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I'm so, so glad that Torchwood is acknowledging some of the problems with Gwyn's character. I have Mindwipe Issues, and so I'm definitely glad that she's unwilling to erase any more of his memories at this point.
Martha should show up and make-out with Tosh.
OMG yes!
EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING is ALWAYS about his family.
Actually I think you are quite right about this. For Dean, there is nothing else. Ow, my heart.
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Martha, like Tosh, is > everyone. They would be well matched.
Dean Winchester OMG, my heart. This show is trying to kill me.
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Absolutely. I wasn't expecting fandom to take it that way but, for me? Absolutely. No question about it and I totally spazzed out that the show went there and made that point. Of course it's a huge thing. Of course there's resentment. Hell, man, resentment is at the heart of it. In a way, Dean builds himself up around that. Builds himself to prove that yes, he is good enough, strong enough, *better* actually. "That was his crap, he was the one who couldn't save Mom! I was always there!" Dean *knows* he's good enough. But of course it makes sense that alterna!demon!Dean goes for that soft soft because it's the basic insecurity that lies at the root of it all, that everything else was built upon. It doesn't negate the fact that Dean knows he's good enough *anyway ( ... )
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Right. It just read so clearly that way to me that I was very surprised to see people reading it as verification of Dean's self-loathing. I . . . just didn't get that at all.
I'd like also to mention that all the self-sacrificing does have a selfish element to it. Oh, no question. And Dean consciously knows it too. Sam called Dean on that at the beginning of the season, didn't he? (It's been awhile since I watched those episodes ( ... )
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Sam did call him on it. I can't say which episode or the exact words but I seem to remember something along the lines of "you have to let me go" which really made the bells ring at the time (because Sam did leave once already and shouldn't there be resentment there on that front too? They haven't gone into this *yet* but man, inquiring minds want to know.)
And then this feeds onto the final scene. It takes the whole dream sequence to crack Dean open and Dean opening up to Sam like that comes from Dean being at the end of his rope. He has no options and *has* to turn to Sam, has to put his faith on Sam, and oh man, how dangerous is *all* of that? (I may have more to say on this but I still have to put my thoughts in order.)
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Not yet, no. But knowing SPN they probably will.
And dangerous, definitely. This season is all about role reversal and Sam saving Dean. (Not explicitly with the possibility of Sam having to kill Dean, but the demon-were-once-hellbound-humans thing opens up elements of that.) I know a lot of people are disappointed, but I'm still loving it and I can't wait to see where they go. (I have, like, symmetry kink or something. This show serves me well).
I would definitely like to read the rest of your thoughts once they're in order!
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