Now I wouldn't dare get into this debate as I know sweet f-all about Shakespeare. But wasn't the genius behind his plays the fact that they were pretty much stories people knew already, just with his slant on them? Or perhaps I'm not explaining that right. It's just something that I heard. It's not that Shakespeare plagiarised someone else's story, he just took well known tales and re-worked them. (kinda like Bram Stoker took the legend of vampires, and created Dracula. Still his creation, but he just took inspiration from mythology)
Mmm-hmm. And I don't understand why all these people can't believe that a man who ended up putting on performances for royalty (and slanting Macbeth to flatter royalty) could never, ever know anything about court life. It's absurd!
I think it's very easy to rework a myth or to twist history (again, a la Macbeth into something else). So what's their argument? That a working-class man couldn't possibly dream up all the world's a stage?
You make a really good point in that his stories are hardly anything new, even for that time. But the genius was in his words and God forbid a normal man ever demonstrate anything like that.
Oh we all know working class people don't have more than two brain cells working at any given time. We null the rest with alcohol and fighting. *anger*
I adore Ben Goldacre! And I agree, the whole attitude that Shakespeare couldn't have written the plays because he wasn't of noble birth, gets so on my tits. I'm not averse to the debate, I've heard some people who argue that Christohper Marlowe wrote them raise some interesting points, but from what I've heard about Anonymous, the crux of their argument seems to be 'Hurrr, look at this chump'.
He's the greatest! I love his dry style and how he just nerds out on all these fake people and destroys them with simple research.
That's exactly my problem. I honestly -- honestly! -- keep trying to read it from their side, but nine times out of ten the crux of it is, 'he couldn't possibly have done it. He was too poor.'
And screw them, because that tells me all I need to know about the people desperate to say he was fake.
If you read the Guardian interview with the idiot producer of that film, you'll be spitting feathers!
We need a Ben Goldacre fanclub right here, I tell you.
It's annoying this stupid film is getting so much attention in the same week as We Need to Talk About Kevin (infinitely more interesting) was released.
I thought they recently proved William Shakespeare was, in fact, William Shakespeare.
Also Anne is ridiculous. Not just as a writer but as a person.
We worshipped her when were young and she, at times, at least the times we knew of, mostly made sense. Now she has a forum and an audience so her soapbox is easier for her to access. Gah.
Here's the thing: I used to believe that he couldn't possibly be so smart as to write all that. And then, you know... now I see them say he couldn't because he describes places. You know what I'd do if I wanted to write about S___? I'd ask you for tips on it. I'd ask you where my characters would eat, the names of local places. OH MY GOD I MUST BE AMERICAN.
Why would a man working with a company of actors from around the country not think to do that?
The more I read about it, the more I think he just was himself. saffronlie and I (I bet unlike Anne Rice) visited Stratford and he's just so ingrained into the culture there, his history literally in the buildings and churches of that area. He was a rich man living off his writing when he was alive. As even a cursory glance at Wiki will tell us, nobody even questioned his authorship until the 19th century, when the man was long dead
( ... )
I remember hearing about the debate in high school and watching a documentary about it, but I'm inclined to believe it was probably all him. Then again, I don't know the facts as well as someone who's done tons of research might.
And exactly. If I want to write about something, I ask people who know about it or are from there or visit the place myself. Even in the distant past, he could have asked traveling people about Verona, say.
Anne doesn't know shit. She reads one thing and decides "YES, that is fact." Like you said about abortions. They don't make a woman's womb weak - she was misinformed and probably read it in a pro-life pamphlet.
I really couldn't take having her in my FB feed because it would raise my blood pressure too much, but I'm sort of glad someone checks her page once in a while so we can find out stuff liek the "Louie" debacle. Did even one person say, "I thought it was Louis?" Geez. Her FB Fans are such suck ups.
I keep wanting to engage in a debate with her and tell her she's crazy, but I see what happens: someone steps in and attempts to disagree, and then several fans harass them. She won't respond, but will post some PA rhetoric later on that evening (hence the Shakespeare silliness).
The abortion thing sickened me. Truly sickened me. That her vile stupidity will be republished and republished for generations to come is horrible.
Do you know that not one person did take her to task about the names? Man, if I had a brother with a troll account on Facebook, I'd totally ask him to post right now-- oh, dear.
Your whole post is compelling and well-written but its truly the last line that gave me a real chuckle. I love Shakespeare and I admit to while knowing about these debates, I dont know much about who they say he was or couldnt be. But it sticks in my craw that they argue he couldnt be a regular, working-class guy because the plays were simply too good.
How dare they? That's to say every writer who ever wrote something good or beautiful or truly creative, or even something remotely interesting or beloved, must have been from the monied classes because the 'regular folk' know nothing and have never been anywhere. Ugh, this is why I wanna throw rocks at people.
And Anne Rice, seriously, did she bump her head and forget that she used to be imaginative and cool and creative? She's like some kind of bot now, who says the most inane and ridiculous things out of her mouth.
I love your reply. You say my post is well-written, but you get exactly what I'm saying and crystallise it. I think it's something the landed gentry will never, ever understand and why it sticks in our throats.
She used to be kind of fun. Now she's just someone who really needs a slap, to be honest.
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Or perhaps I'm not explaining that right. It's just something that I heard. It's not that Shakespeare plagiarised someone else's story, he just took well known tales and re-worked them. (kinda like Bram Stoker took the legend of vampires, and created Dracula. Still his creation, but he just took inspiration from mythology)
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I think it's very easy to rework a myth or to twist history (again, a la Macbeth into something else). So what's their argument? That a working-class man couldn't possibly dream up all the world's a stage?
You make a really good point in that his stories are hardly anything new, even for that time. But the genius was in his words and God forbid a normal man ever demonstrate anything like that.
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Sometimes I think the elite take those lyrics at face value.
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That's exactly my problem. I honestly -- honestly! -- keep trying to read it from their side, but nine times out of ten the crux of it is, 'he couldn't possibly have done it. He was too poor.'
And screw them, because that tells me all I need to know about the people desperate to say he was fake.
If you read the Guardian interview with the idiot producer of that film, you'll be spitting feathers!
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I had no idea that was what Anonymous was about, either. I'm so out of the loop.
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It's annoying this stupid film is getting so much attention in the same week as We Need to Talk About Kevin (infinitely more interesting) was released.
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Also Anne is ridiculous. Not just as a writer but as a person.
We worshipped her when were young and she, at times, at least the times we knew of, mostly made sense. Now she has a forum and an audience so her soapbox is easier for her to access. Gah.
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Why would a man working with a company of actors from around the country not think to do that?
The more I read about it, the more I think he just was himself. saffronlie and I (I bet unlike Anne Rice) visited Stratford and he's just so ingrained into the culture there, his history literally in the buildings and churches of that area. He was a rich man living off his writing when he was alive. As even a cursory glance at Wiki will tell us, nobody even questioned his authorship until the 19th century, when the man was long dead ( ... )
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And exactly. If I want to write about something, I ask people who know about it or are from there or visit the place myself. Even in the distant past, he could have asked traveling people about Verona, say.
Anne doesn't know shit. She reads one thing and decides "YES, that is fact." Like you said about abortions. They don't make a woman's womb weak - she was misinformed and probably read it in a pro-life pamphlet.
I really couldn't take having her in my FB feed because it would raise my blood pressure too much, but I'm sort of glad someone checks her page once in a while so we can find out stuff liek the "Louie" debacle. Did even one person say, "I thought it was Louis?" Geez. Her FB Fans are such suck ups.
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The abortion thing sickened me. Truly sickened me. That her vile stupidity will be republished and republished for generations to come is horrible.
Do you know that not one person did take her to task about the names? Man, if I had a brother with a troll account on Facebook, I'd totally ask him to post right now-- oh, dear.
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I'd love you to meet her in the middle of a supermarket one day and have words.
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How dare they? That's to say every writer who ever wrote something good or beautiful or truly creative, or even something remotely interesting or beloved, must have been from the monied classes because the 'regular folk' know nothing and have never been anywhere. Ugh, this is why I wanna throw rocks at people.
And Anne Rice, seriously, did she bump her head and forget that she used to be imaginative and cool and creative? She's like some kind of bot now, who says the most inane and ridiculous things out of her mouth.
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She used to be kind of fun. Now she's just someone who really needs a slap, to be honest.
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