On the Church of England, the Granting of Rights, and Gay Marriage

[reading_is_in]

Right now the UK news is full of the opinions of senior C of E clergymen on gay marriage - mostly negative. Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, has actually declared that he will step down partly over pressures on him to declare consistently on the issue: unsurprising really, as Williams is much more an academic and a theologian than a

Comments

[embroiderama]

I can't really speak to church marriage, but here in the US marriage (as opposed to any kind of domestic partnership that may be available in some places) confers a number of benefits that can't be achieved in any other way.

[reading_is_in]

Ah we have something different - 'civil partnership'. You can have a civil partnership with any other adult over 16 whom you are not related to. It has the same legal conditions as marriage. I'd be down with that for myself. Only heterosexuals can get 'married', either by the state or church. But it is literally a matter of terminology. State marriage and state civil partnership = exact same legal condition.

[write_light]

If that = sign truly means 100% = in every way, then why is any distinction necessary? Because "marriage" has other weights, benefits, and connotations.

[reading_is_in]

That is true. I do wonder myself why the distinction, but I think that in this country, the weight/connotations attached to marriage are Christian/Conservative. I know (hetero) people who have chosen civil partnerships because they want to distance themselves from the idea of being joined by God/The Church (I almost put 'tied together by God - ew, what an image!). But perhaps marriage is still seen as better/more legitimate by some people - but now I'm back to, well, who cares what those people think, they're never gonna be reasoned with anyway?

[write_light]

I wouldn't be a member of any club that would have me? :D

Here in the US, the term "marriage" is exactly what is being fought for, because of its legal status. A simply legal "arrangement" is no longer sufficient, being viewed as a kind of 'separate but equal', another term that has a long and bleak history in this country.

From my perspective, it isn't about getting the church (and here, that's at least five denominations of Christianity, from Lutheran to Catholic to Mormon to fire-breathing Evangelical) to change THEIR view or terminology, but in yanking the term itself (and the status and benefits both societal and strictly legal) back into the public sphere.

The state recognizes our marriage; the federal government does not; churches never will and since we're areligious, that's not an issue for us.

[reading_is_in]

yanking the term itself (and the status and benefits both societal and strictly legal) back into the public sphere.

An excellent point. After all it's not marriage that the Church invented but 'the sacrament of matrimony'. Maybe the C of E should go back to calling what they do 'the sacrament of matrimony' and then let them regulate their own sacraments however they like. If they did that marriage could be defined legally by the state without all the religious connotations.

[write_light]

As we often say, let the church dictate how it recognizes "religious marriage", but I like "the sacrament of matrimony" - far too Catholic for the Protestants here, I fear. "Civil marriage" is a right of secular society that is for all to enjoy.

Next we can argue about multiple marriage. :D I find it endlessly ironic that the Mormon church, forced to publicly abandon its earlier practices in favor the societall/legally accepted 1 Man + 1 Woman has decided that "if we can't have the marriage we want, no one can".

[reading_is_in]

LOL Oh Mormons.

Some branches of the C of E are basically Catholic in all but name. Prayers to Mary, incense, gilded altars and all. I was raised vaguely Christian with some haphazard and intermittent attendance at an Anglican church, where we definitely talked about sacraments.But 'civil marriage' is a good term.

[i_like_limes]

I am not sure I agree, because marriage ISN'T a term that belongs to or can be defined by the christian church. They don't hold the copyright to the idea of getting wed. This position sort of allows them ownership of that word "marriage", when they shouldn't have it.

I mean, what if the other religions in the country allow same sex marriage? That would still be marriage, and give no validation to the C of E.

Personally I don't see why the legal issuing should be what is called "marriage", since everyone else EXCEPT gay people gets to use it, regardless of religion....

And then you just let the churches decide whether they want to participate or not; gives people the option to go to another church.

A lot of gay people are also christians and there is no biblical resaon not to have same sex marriage. So I wouldn't compare it to trying to get acknowledgement from the BNP. I think of it in terms of trying to repair something you love.

[reading_is_in]

I am not sure I agree, because marriage ISN'T a term that belongs to or can be defined by the christian church. They don't hold the copyright to the idea of getting wed. This position sort of allows them ownership of that word "marriage", when they shouldn't have it.

Yes, that's true. Another reason they should go back to using the sacrament (which Christianity did invent) and perhaps drop 'marriage' (which it didn't).

Personally I don't see why the legal issuing should be what is called "marriage", since everyone else EXCEPT gay people gets to use it, regardless of religion....

Well not really - you can't have a group marriage or marry a relative.

I think of it in terms of trying to repair something you love.

But why do you love it when it doesn't acknowledge you? I guess what's at that heart of this problem is who gets to define the rules of a C/church and how far you have to accept it to be a member.

[reading_is_in]

Oh also - guess who joined Zara in the killing stakes yesterday? :S. Actually he topped her. A bird. It wasn't pleasant. My cats are serial killers and they like it.