Chapter IX: The state of Germany till the invasion of the Barbarians

[nwhyte]

Read it here, here or here. I have invested in the first of the three-volume Penguin complete Decline and Fall, which was pretty inexpensive second-hand from *m*z*n and has a decent list also of changes between the various editions.

0) Normal service resumedThis time last week, I was at a conference on Tudor Ireland in Connecticut; the Saturday

Comments

[strange_complex]

It's a while since I read this chapter, but I found it one of the most enjoyable so far. There's lots of good value to be got out of drunken Germans, and I particularly liked footnote 10/11 (depending which edition you are reading): "The Cimbri, by way of amusement, often slid down mountains of snow on their broad shields." Awesome!

Like nwhyte, I was struck by Gibbons' rather mixed comments on the supposed gender roles of the ancient Germans. For a moment he comes across as surprisingly proto-feminist, but the illusion is quickly dispelled. His apparent admiration for the exotic German idea of (shock!) treating women like human beings unfortunately only extends as far as liking the chastity which results - i.e. he still believes that female sexuality should only exist subject to constraints imposed by men. It is also severely tempered by his observation that the results are aesthetically displeasing: "Whilst they affected to emulate the stern virtues of man, they must have resigned that attractive softness in which principally consist the

[unwholesome_fen]

Regarding the climate change, there are various charts based on proxies, e.g.:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v433/n7026/fig_tab/nature03265_F2.html

However I've been unable to corroborate Gibbons' claim that the Rhine and Danube frequently froze in Roman times, or that they never froze in modern times. Also, as far as I can tell, the notion that the famous incursion in 406 (or possibly 405) was over a frozen Rhine apparently originates with Gibbon, and is not mentioned in contemporary accounts.

[swisstone]

That's interesting. I haven't got all my books to hand, but I shall make a point of checking into the sources when we get round to 406.

[unwholesome_fen]

I'd certainly be interested in a definitive answer!

[swisstone]

I would observe that the Danube was a cold place for Ovid in more ways than one

Modern scholarship tends to take the view that Ovid exaggerates the hardships of life in a Black Sea holiday resort, in order to make his life seem more pitiable, and increase his chances of being allowed to return to Rome.