"Liquid Explosives"

[ravan]

OK, I've read some of the articles and such about liquid explosives from the BBC. They all allude to some vague, nebulous ingredients that might be able to be combined to make a liquid explosive, or combining a liquid and a solid

Comments

[koga]

I am sure your degree in chemistry, organic or otherwise, serves you well in this reguard.

Every single one of your points about smell or notice, is voided by simply -sealing- the container before you bring it to the airport. NO smell from a sealed container. I only need 10 seconds to detonate just about anything, really.

At least get off the high horse of 'OMG SO INCONVENIANT!'. They were, according to the reports I read, just a few hours away from actually putting the plan in to action. OBVIOUSLY someone with a bit more education in chemical sciences than either of us thinks it was credible enough to put three nations on alert and utterly inconveniance thousands of travelers.

[hollyking]

But you can still take it on your checked luggage. So how is it any safer to stop people from carrying on in a bag? This is another band-aid effort that doesn't really increase the "security" of flying.

[koga]

The answer to that is fairly simple

[ravan]

BTW, they still don't have 100% baggage screening via MRI, IIRC. The funding for sufficient machines never came through...

[fizzyland]

The last flight I was on, a woman changed a diaper in the seat behind me and I thought I was going to throw up. Again, this is right up there with box cutter theories and the deadly menace of nail clippers: "Back or I'll round your toenails!"

[mdlbear]

Easy enough to do the mixing inside a plastic bag.

Of course the next trick will be little sealed two-component bombs that do the mixing and detonation inside a checked suitcase.

Oh, and H2O2 is pretty easy to get or synthesize, though it's tricky to handle. Ask any rocket hobbyist.

And of course powdered aluminum and air will do just as well as acetone and H2O2.

[ravan]

Easy enough to do the mixing inside a plastic bag.

Without fumbling or being noticed?

Of course the next trick will be little sealed two-component bombs that do the mixing and detonation inside a checked suitcase.

Or prescription meds capsules with anthrax in them instead.

Oh, and H2O2 is pretty easy to get or synthesize, though it's tricky to handle. Ask any rocket hobbyist.

The tricky to handle is its downfall.

And of course powdered aluminum and air will do just as well as acetone and H2O2.

Yeah, and the restriction on liquids won't effect that.

Hell, if you want to be an ass, take a small bag of flour, go into the bathroom, block the vents, then get the really well into the air, and then strike a spark. You might get a dust explosion, IIRC. If it fails, it's easy to clean up.

[mdlbear]

"without fumbling or being noticed?"

Easy -- do it under a blanket. Anybody who's ever taken 35mm film out of a roll in a changing bag could do it with a little practice. Or put their ponytail in a rubber band behind their back, for that matter.

H2O2 is fairly tame as long as you don't let it get in contact with somethng that will catalyze its disintegration, which is highly exothermic. They discovered during WWII that solder falls into that category. Plastic, however, is just fine.

[raindrops]

What pisses me off the most is that all they have to do is announce that they've foiled a plot, and therefore we are all simultaneously saved and subject to further bullshit.

Show me, don't tell me.

They (all the coalition of the killing) have been "thwarting" plots ever since 9/11, yet we've seen no legitimate judicial action based upon these claims.

Why was the announcement not made after arrests, charges, evidence presented in a court of law, and a verdict?

If it was such a brilliant plan, why didn't these trrrrrrrrrrists infiltrate the employee rosters of airport vendors and suppliers, to coordinate shipment of the inert substances to different airport bars/restaurants, and then disperse them on D-Day to the psycho mofos who would then combine them in the damn loo onboard?

"I'd like the extra-special daily special."

How hard is that?

[ravan]

Not very. Sleepers are a far more insidious threat. If you are patient, you can have several of your agents get jobs with concessions, and then years later use them to provide materials. They don't have to have flight line clearance - just concessions. But they can smuggle small amounts in over several weeks. If you have them all working for different vendors, there's less chance of them being found out. Have two or three for each component. Better yet, have the ones with component 1 at SFO, component 2 at ATL, and component 3 at JFK. Get on an international flight from there.

That's why I don't believe this crap about liquid explosives and sports drink containers. It's too contrived.

Hell, liquid plus powder is more believable.

[raindrops]

And don't forget, this is an election year. Congress is out of session until September 5, when they will do nothing for a month, then adjourn so they can go fight to keep their seats. Coupled with the fact that the Bush administration was privy to the investigation all along, it seems all the more contrived.

Hey, America, look what we've been doing to keep you safe! Now pay, and obey.

[jemyl]

I can think of two that I know of which could do major damage quite easily. One is a length of sodium based phone cable --- just put it into water in an enclosed space and wait for it to blow and it will blow, big time. The other is to simply have some pool chamical and pour DOT #3 brakd fluid on it --- Boom and fire! either of these could be done under that blanket or in a bag and only one of them is really liquid in each pair. There are others and the problem is detecting which liquid would be used for the catalyst and with which solid. I guess someone figures that eliminating the liquids and gels will eliminate at least half of the possible equation. Actually I think this ban makes a whole lot more sense than the nail clippers and crochet hooks! But then, we crazy VFD folk tend to be more aware of what will smoke, boom and burn more that what will poke, prod and cut

[ravan]

Yeah, but sealed bottles of water purchased inside the sterile zone??

One is a length of sodium based phone cable...

Oh, cripes! I thought they phased that crap out years ago and disposed of it properly. That's just an fire waiting to happen.

... have some pool chemical and pour DOT #3 brake fluid on it --- Boom and fire!

Both of those stink (depending on what the pool chemical you're thinking of is), and are nasty to handle.

Let's just say my parents never realized how cautious I was when playing chemistry in junior high and high school, and I still ended up with some very exciting and stinky reactions... I stayed away from trying to make explosives in the house because I didn't want to scare the dog.

[mdlbear]

Sodium isn't reactive enough -- it'll burn, but not explode. Put a gram or two of rubidium (list price about $30/g) in a soluble capsule. Order a glass of water from the stewardess. Drop it in and put the glass down by the window. Boom.

[jemyl]

Sorry, but I have personally seen the results of a sic inch piece of phone cable (which our instructor told us was filled with sodium) placed in about a gallon of regular water in a five gallon plastic pail with another pail wedged down in it explode and send the "cover" pail 35 ft in the air and destroy the first pail completely. There is still a lot of that old phone cable in use as it is only replaced when it wears out because of the cost to find and replace all of it. This little explosion was part of our practical demonstration on the last day of our Hazmat training class.