Sexism in "Bakuman"
Both my good friends-and-fellow-cartoonists cowhatninja and Patrick have been recommending that I read Tsugumi Ohba and Takeshi Obata's Bakuman - comic about two young men trying to break into the world of professional comics, with the specific lofty goal of becoming popular in major publisher Shueisha's primo magazine Weekly Shonen Jump (the same magazine that Bakuman, itself, has been running in since it began in 2008.)
The following is a conversation with Patrick (Nork) about Bakuman and sexism therein (and thereout.) Edited slightly for clarification and spelling.
JoJo says: Okay. I've gotten through chapter 33 of Bakuman.
Nork says: Weeeally? Likeing it?
JoJo says: Not at first, but I rather like it since the big turning point in chapter 24, when they decide to do a comic that appealed to their specific interests, and awakened the joy of comics in them, rather than try to mindlessly mimic what might be en vogue.
Nork says: *nods*
JoJo says: Less keen on the pervasive sexism in the story, though. : <
Nork says: The whole "better seen and not heard" deal...which is almost "better neither seen nor heard"... just there to motivate?
JoJo says: Yes, exactly. The female characters are put on this weird pedestal. They exist to be muses.
One character has such an idealized version of his fiancée that he won't even talk to her.
The other seems to put up with his girlfriend...not because he really LIKES her, but because he doesn't want to go through the hassle of breaking up with her? Meanwhile, she falls all over herself to cook for the guys who otherwise resent her presence.
The one who is trying to be a voice actress has that ambition going for her...but so much of that is wrapped up in her being an object of sexual desire of men.
I was happy that they finally introduced a female comic writer, and now a female art assistant for the main characters. The writer was not exactly likeable...but I'm attributing some of that to cultural differences; she's overly blunt and kinda aloof, but she is asserting her opinions, which it seems is hard for women to do unless it's in a bubbleheaded genki girl way, blurting things out without thinking.
I hope this assistant girl is a good character. Series so needs one.
But it's not just the actual women characters. It's also the attitudes expressed by our heroes, the guys we're cheering for. The way they say right away that there's no way they'll demean themselves by doing something other than a manly man's manga for manly men.
The way they say they resent the girlfriend's offer to help tell them how women think when they're writing female characters, rationalizing that they only need to/ should only write a romantically idealized love-interest, an object of sexual fantasy.
Of course, these are problems that exist in American comics as well as Japanese shonen manga. : <
Nork says: Too bad I can't convey my thoughts in such a rational manner
JoJo says: Please try. I want to hear your opinions, too. : )
Nork says: Well, as a reader, I don't see these types of things right away. But you just proved to me that I do, but don't recognize that I do until someone else points it out.
I'm sure someone could have asked me what I thought of the comic and I would say, "I like it, but the romantic part feels weird." The weirdness would be what you just explained. I really do hate weak sex roles or cliche ones.
So I guess I saw it, but it didn't quite register right off the bat.
I like to think of myself as deep, without trying to be a fake who wears glasses and turtle neck sweaters, when I'm looking for a story, maybe writing a story or doing drawings. I know what feels right to be. So I find I stray away from stereotypes even without that being on purpose.
JoJo says: Yeah, I really like and respect the way you have a wide range of characters. And you seem to put just as much thought into each one, and give them full personalities and story roles.
Nork says: I just.. don't want to be misunderstood, and want to give everyone their fair share.
JoJo says: It's maybe a little easier for me to pick up on how female characters are treated, because it's something I specifically pay attention to. I mean, as a woman cartoonist, it's something I have a bit of a personal stake in. =/
Nork says: Which I respect. And I'm sure guys kinda glaze over it because we do like strong present male characters who don't need "females" hanging on their arms.
This is typical thought. I mean one of my writers is.. the physical manifestation of this. lol
He's not sexist, mind you.
JoJo says: It's a very common sentiment.
Interesting, or at least prominent, male characters are the default. They don't necessarily need romantic interests to be considered interesting.
Nork says: But why do women need to be put in that small pine box where they need a man?
*shrugs* Yeah, it bothers me...but it's not fair that a character can't be like the other.
JoJo says: Because there's an assumed (heterosexual) male audience for things like comics. So women are there to be "fuckable".
Nork says: True.
JoJo says: Because society is sexist. It prioritizes things that are male.
If a woman shows "masculine" characteristics, as long as she's still physically attractive she'll usually be rewarded, socially. But if a man shows "effeminate" characteristics, however positive, he'll be socially (if not physically) punished for it.
Nork says: *nods*
JoJo says: There's this strange myth that men and women have opposite characteristics...It's completely untrue! As groups, men and women are pretty much completely identical! But the myth persists, because that keeps powerful people in power. : <
So we end up with phrases like "don't be a pussy" and "man up".
Nork says: That and there's the false assumtions of having the "POWER". I love that...That just tickles me so much.
JoJo says: What do you mean? Can you elaborate on that?
Nork says: I hear it a lot from both sexes: women have power over a man because of sex. They can cut it off...or turn it on any time they want, so they have the "POWER."
Men express the idea of "Power" as either sexual or money-wise.
JoJo says: Oh, right. That old line.
Nork says: Right.
JoJo says: Yeah, again...that's weird and untrue.
Nork says: I just find the whole primal fight to be dominant a funny and shameful deal...that I'm guilty of, but not over females. Just projects that I personally start and am head of. But domination of a friend or mate is unacceptable.
JoJo says: Yeah. I think we all want a lot of control in our lives.And that's not bad.
What's bad is that, in comics and elsewhere, women are collectively seen as EXISTING FOR the benefit of men.
Nork says: YES! You're totally right.
I think that's what's soured me a lot with American comics.
JoJo says: So you and I, we've gotta make comics that are better. : )
Nork says: Yes, we do.
The following is a conversation with Patrick (Nork) about Bakuman and sexism therein (and thereout.) Edited slightly for clarification and spelling.
JoJo says: Okay. I've gotten through chapter 33 of Bakuman.
Nork says: Weeeally? Likeing it?
JoJo says: Not at first, but I rather like it since the big turning point in chapter 24, when they decide to do a comic that appealed to their specific interests, and awakened the joy of comics in them, rather than try to mindlessly mimic what might be en vogue.
Nork says: *nods*
JoJo says: Less keen on the pervasive sexism in the story, though. : <
Nork says: The whole "better seen and not heard" deal...which is almost "better neither seen nor heard"... just there to motivate?
JoJo says: Yes, exactly. The female characters are put on this weird pedestal. They exist to be muses.
One character has such an idealized version of his fiancée that he won't even talk to her.
The other seems to put up with his girlfriend...not because he really LIKES her, but because he doesn't want to go through the hassle of breaking up with her? Meanwhile, she falls all over herself to cook for the guys who otherwise resent her presence.
The one who is trying to be a voice actress has that ambition going for her...but so much of that is wrapped up in her being an object of sexual desire of men.
I was happy that they finally introduced a female comic writer, and now a female art assistant for the main characters. The writer was not exactly likeable...but I'm attributing some of that to cultural differences; she's overly blunt and kinda aloof, but she is asserting her opinions, which it seems is hard for women to do unless it's in a bubbleheaded genki girl way, blurting things out without thinking.
I hope this assistant girl is a good character. Series so needs one.
But it's not just the actual women characters. It's also the attitudes expressed by our heroes, the guys we're cheering for. The way they say right away that there's no way they'll demean themselves by doing something other than a manly man's manga for manly men.
The way they say they resent the girlfriend's offer to help tell them how women think when they're writing female characters, rationalizing that they only need to/ should only write a romantically idealized love-interest, an object of sexual fantasy.
Of course, these are problems that exist in American comics as well as Japanese shonen manga. : <
Nork says: Too bad I can't convey my thoughts in such a rational manner
JoJo says: Please try. I want to hear your opinions, too. : )
Nork says: Well, as a reader, I don't see these types of things right away. But you just proved to me that I do, but don't recognize that I do until someone else points it out.
I'm sure someone could have asked me what I thought of the comic and I would say, "I like it, but the romantic part feels weird." The weirdness would be what you just explained. I really do hate weak sex roles or cliche ones.
So I guess I saw it, but it didn't quite register right off the bat.
I like to think of myself as deep, without trying to be a fake who wears glasses and turtle neck sweaters, when I'm looking for a story, maybe writing a story or doing drawings. I know what feels right to be. So I find I stray away from stereotypes even without that being on purpose.
JoJo says: Yeah, I really like and respect the way you have a wide range of characters. And you seem to put just as much thought into each one, and give them full personalities and story roles.
Nork says: I just.. don't want to be misunderstood, and want to give everyone their fair share.
JoJo says: It's maybe a little easier for me to pick up on how female characters are treated, because it's something I specifically pay attention to. I mean, as a woman cartoonist, it's something I have a bit of a personal stake in. =/
Nork says: Which I respect. And I'm sure guys kinda glaze over it because we do like strong present male characters who don't need "females" hanging on their arms.
This is typical thought. I mean one of my writers is.. the physical manifestation of this. lol
He's not sexist, mind you.
JoJo says: It's a very common sentiment.
Interesting, or at least prominent, male characters are the default. They don't necessarily need romantic interests to be considered interesting.
Nork says: But why do women need to be put in that small pine box where they need a man?
*shrugs* Yeah, it bothers me...but it's not fair that a character can't be like the other.
JoJo says: Because there's an assumed (heterosexual) male audience for things like comics. So women are there to be "fuckable".
Nork says: True.
JoJo says: Because society is sexist. It prioritizes things that are male.
If a woman shows "masculine" characteristics, as long as she's still physically attractive she'll usually be rewarded, socially. But if a man shows "effeminate" characteristics, however positive, he'll be socially (if not physically) punished for it.
Nork says: *nods*
JoJo says: There's this strange myth that men and women have opposite characteristics...It's completely untrue! As groups, men and women are pretty much completely identical! But the myth persists, because that keeps powerful people in power. : <
So we end up with phrases like "don't be a pussy" and "man up".
Nork says: That and there's the false assumtions of having the "POWER". I love that...That just tickles me so much.
JoJo says: What do you mean? Can you elaborate on that?
Nork says: I hear it a lot from both sexes: women have power over a man because of sex. They can cut it off...or turn it on any time they want, so they have the "POWER."
Men express the idea of "Power" as either sexual or money-wise.
JoJo says: Oh, right. That old line.
Nork says: Right.
JoJo says: Yeah, again...that's weird and untrue.
Nork says: I just find the whole primal fight to be dominant a funny and shameful deal...that I'm guilty of, but not over females. Just projects that I personally start and am head of. But domination of a friend or mate is unacceptable.
JoJo says: Yeah. I think we all want a lot of control in our lives.And that's not bad.
What's bad is that, in comics and elsewhere, women are collectively seen as EXISTING FOR the benefit of men.
Nork says: YES! You're totally right.
I think that's what's soured me a lot with American comics.
JoJo says: So you and I, we've gotta make comics that are better. : )
Nork says: Yes, we do.