As if I could just let it go. :p

[quean]

This post is mostly for my favorite meat-eating asshole, who has made it his goal to match the obnoxiousness of militant vegans. I actually bothered to look stuff up and put together a fairly thought out response; so... hey, YOU... please, pay attention.

Comments

[adamopoulos]

I think what raised Maddox's ire was the idea of them having something on the menu called "Guiltless." It would annoy me too as it implies that those consuming other parts of the menu should feel guilty and in order to assuage said guilt, should eat the guiltless alternative. I don't want to see that bullshit come dinner time. When I'm hungry, I'm not about to have someone question my morals... Maybe when I'm full

It is I

[jayhova]

In fact I am the asshole in question.

I will stipulate the the numbers of animals killed is virtually unprovable. Since it would require a tremendous effort to count the number of animals killed in the planting a harvesting of crops. Just as it is all but impossible to get an accurate account of the mortality rates in a forest fire.

Consider however that habitat destruction is total. Most of the creatures in question are borrowers. When a field is tilled any underground dwellings will be collapsed. Any young in the dwell will suffer a near 100% mortality rate. Bear in mind that when danger threatens this is the most likely place to flee. While the actual mortality rate at the time of the harvest may be quite low, the resulting exposure to airborne predators will be very high due to a total lack of ground cover.

The reason I am so on the offensive about this is due to the first stone principle. I resent some vegan tree hugger acting all holier than thou because he thinks that his hands are clean and that he is without sin.

Re: It is I

[quean]

I agree. My main problem was with your statement: "The fact is that range fed beef kills fewer animals than the vegan diet."

[quean]

I mostly agree with Maddox on this, and I think he's pretty damn funny. I'm not interested in trying to sway his views.

And you're right. I'm not really an aggressive anything, unless someone cuts into my nap time. Being militant requires time and energy that I'd rather devote to more important things. Like art appreciation.

[jayhova]

First off I live in the beautiful state of Texas and so do not consume a great deal of grain fed beef. Most of the beef I eat is pasture raised beef.

I do understand that in the winter in some places is necessary to feed livestock on hay. Hay production is much less destructive to the habitat of the animals in question. There is no tilling in hay production and while a great deal of ground cover is removed there is a certain amount left for the next crop to grow from.

[quean]

It is my understanding that even "pasture raised" beef are finished on grain. Unless the buyer is specifically shopping for "all grass fed" beef, there isn't economic incentive to do otherwise. Cattle that are purely pasture raised are not as large, and there's less meat to sell. If you're buying from a grocery store, and the label does not say "all grass fed"... it probably isn't.

And again, I didn't see where Davis subtracted the land that is harvested for animal feed. That's a substantial amount of land to not take into account. His findings, even as a vague projections, look pretty flawed to me.

Davis made some valuable points about environment and the minimization of suffering, and even the animal rights people have acknowledged that. You could find that a specific omnivore causes less harm than a specific vegan. But how could any blanket statement on the moral superiority of either group be made?

And that was the point, as I see it. To plant doubt. Certainty is a luxury of the ignorant.

[jayhova]

The beef I prefer is low fat beef with no hormone and no anti-biotics in the last 6 months. The low fat beefs are generally grass and hay fed. This is what makes them low fat. The whole point of grain feeding beef is to fatten them up for market. The way to avoid this is to buy brand specific beefs. There are two in this area that I like. Laura's beef and Noelan Ryan's beef. Both of these are low fat, no hormone beefs.