Yes, absolutely I think you make sense. Ashe is very aggressive and intense, and it's fine to not like those characteristics -- what's problematic, as you say, is gendering that dislike. It's not a case of 'I like laid-back characters better than dogged ones,' it's 'Ashe is a bitch, a shrew, a nag, and she should shut up and know her place.'
And that sets my teeth on edge.
Ashe wears a ridiculous pink miniskirt, it's true -- but otherwise she acts as a young male hero intent on regaining his throne might -- and it upsets me greatly to see people implying that she ought to not act that way because she's female, by using gendered insults. It implies that women should not be angry, or determined, or go after what they want, lest they become unappealing as women. And that's extremely distasteful.
My thoughts exactly. (Only you said them better.) Really, gendered insults just generally get to me, but the sense of "she should know her place" seems so strong with a lot of the Ashe-bashing crowd that -- yeah. It gets to me.
I agree with you. I think it's maybe because the last heroine we were introduced to in the main FF series was superficially the soft, yielding lady we might "expect", and previous FF "heroines" have been in perhaps the same mold - let the man sort it out. (Yuna and Garnet have a few redeeming features; Rinoa, to my mind, does not.) Ashe is more in the mold of Celes or Rydia: she doesn't have time for conventions because there are important things to do. And I agree that it's unfair to judge Ashe so harshly because she's female, but to me, it's so very refreshing to see a strong female main character again after so long, that it makes me doubly angry when people discount her abilities because she's being "a bitch" or "PMSing." (I will point out here that Ashe PMSing is probably something no one in their right mind is going to intrude on, but anyway
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Vent away! You're making a lot of excellent points. (And I'm in agreement with you about Rinoa. She's the main reason why I couldn't finish FFVIII. Just...yeesh.)
And you make a good point that Ashe is very much a product of her environment, and as the leader of the Resistance and the heir to her throne, she really can't afford to be laid back if she's going to have any chance of regaining her country. She has to be proactive. That's something I think a lot of people miss.
(And I just got to Celes in FFVI. She's damn cool. This is promising.)
I think a lot of my expectations for heroines in Final Fantasy games were shaped by my first real exposure to the series in FFVI, so I always end up liking the "ice bitch" characters. I liked Beatrix in FF9, Lulu in FFX, Paine in FFX-2, and of course I'm all about Ashe in FF12. The so-called "nice girls," like Aeris, Rinoa, Penelo, or Yuna, set my teeth on edge (and the perky ones like Rikku make me want to destroy things, but that's a whole other thing.) I like strong women, and either roguish men or doomed honourable knights
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Oh, I love Lulu and Paine. Have yet to play through FFIX, sadly. (I do like some of the "nice girl" types -- I'm very fond of Aeris and Penelo, although I'd argue that those two have a little bit more spark to them -- but the perky types do set my teeth on edge.)
I really liked that Ashe wasn't the white mage romantic heroine so common to the fantasy genre in general. While they can be well-done, it's so nice to see a break from convention. The lack of overt romance also really made me happy; it fit in well with FFXII's more subtle ways of showing growth and character development. Plus, the "world is saved by the power of their twoo wuv" device gets OLD.
What? Who is saying these things? Do I have to come and kill them?
Seriously, I completely agree with you, and it's this sort of thing hits a nerve for me more then anything else. It's a ridiculous double standard, that women who are aggressive at all are shrill shrews (way to dehumanize, people) PMSing (irrational) or "emasculating" (what? there's only a certain amount of aggression to go around and if women have even a little bit they must be stealing it from men?), while men are strong and admirable. It's insane.
And then I get really angry, which only plays into the sexism further, because of course women are never, ever angry for a good reason. They are PMSing, or hysterical.
Even if their family has all been killed and their country is occupied by the conquering empire and they're working with a resistance group, apparently. ARG!
The double standard is sickening, yes. Women aren't all fluff and sweetness and light. They don't have to be. When they act in ways that aren't passive and nurturing, they aren't being irrational or abnormal. They're being themselves.
Yeah. If those bozos want to see women "angry for a good reason," I can give them PLENTY of good reasons.
I would say "does Mithy have to SMACK A BITCH", but no, hey'd just dismiss that as my being shrewish.
I do think Ashe can be emasculating, but in rather specific situations--"who are you, Vossler, to talk of trust?" is a verbal kick in the groin if ever I heard one--but it's not her intent or agenda. Her agenda is not genered, period. Reclaiming her kingdom would be the same if she were to become King intead of Queen of it.
Damn straight. Which is one of the main reasons the gendered insults get to me so, I think -- instead of her actions reflecting on her as a character, they now reflect on her as a woman. Charming.
(And yeah, that scene was painful. Ow. Wonderful, but ow.)
Re: at 5am, I don't have to be reasonable.puella_nerdiiJune 10 2007, 15:20:45 UTC
Complete and total agreement. Hell, if Ashe was la-dee-dah sweetness and light after going through two years of hell, I'd call MAJOR shenanigans. Having your loved ones die and seeing your country subjugated and being forced into highly undesirable circumstances changes you, especially if you're a freaking teenager when all of it happens.
Ahem.
So yeah. When did plausible characterization become evidence of irrational and unlikable behavior, anyway?
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And that sets my teeth on edge.
Ashe wears a ridiculous pink miniskirt, it's true -- but otherwise she acts as a young male hero intent on regaining his throne might -- and it upsets me greatly to see people implying that she ought to not act that way because she's female, by using gendered insults. It implies that women should not be angry, or determined, or go after what they want, lest they become unappealing as women. And that's extremely distasteful.
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And you make a good point that Ashe is very much a product of her environment, and as the leader of the Resistance and the heir to her throne, she really can't afford to be laid back if she's going to have any chance of regaining her country. She has to be proactive. That's something I think a lot of people miss.
(And I just got to Celes in FFVI. She's damn cool. This is promising.)
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I really liked that Ashe wasn't the white mage romantic heroine so common to the fantasy genre in general. While they can be well-done, it's so nice to see a break from convention. The lack of overt romance also really made me happy; it fit in well with FFXII's more subtle ways of showing growth and character development. Plus, the "world is saved by the power of their twoo wuv" device gets OLD.
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Seriously, I completely agree with you, and it's this sort of thing hits a nerve for me more then anything else. It's a ridiculous double standard, that women who are aggressive at all are shrill shrews (way to dehumanize, people) PMSing (irrational) or "emasculating" (what? there's only a certain amount of aggression to go around and if women have even a little bit they must be stealing it from men?), while men are strong and admirable. It's insane.
And then I get really angry, which only plays into the sexism further, because of course women are never, ever angry for a good reason. They are PMSing, or hysterical.
Even if their family has all been killed and their country is occupied by the conquering empire and they're working with a resistance group, apparently. ARG!
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Yeah. If those bozos want to see women "angry for a good reason," I can give them PLENTY of good reasons.
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I do think Ashe can be emasculating, but in rather specific situations--"who are you, Vossler, to talk of trust?" is a verbal kick in the groin if ever I heard one--but it's not her intent or agenda. Her agenda is not genered, period. Reclaiming her kingdom would be the same if she were to become King intead of Queen of it.
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I love that particular scene. It hurts so good. I roll around in the woe and purr.
and I don't even go in for woe very often. Just. Unf.
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Taste of anguish. Taste of beautiful, beautiful angusih.
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Damn straight. Which is one of the main reasons the gendered insults get to me so, I think -- instead of her actions reflecting on her as a character, they now reflect on her as a woman. Charming.
(And yeah, that scene was painful. Ow. Wonderful, but ow.)
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Ahem.
So yeah. When did plausible characterization become evidence of irrational and unlikable behavior, anyway?
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