Comments | prozacpark: Thoughts on fiction and gender: So, what about the men?

prozacpark

Thoughts on fiction and gender: So, what about the men?

Jul 08, 2009 19:22

Every time there's a good discussion of the treatment of female characters in fiction or a mention of female deaths/refrigerations, there's always the inevitable derailment of the discussion with the very brilliant question of, "But what about the men? Do they don't die/get mistreated/etc, too?" So, I've been thinking: Indeed, what about the men? ( Read more... )

literature, gender, pop culture, buffy, mythology, fiction, angel, gender meta, women, battlestar galactica, sita sings the blues, fandom meta, misogyny, meta, sexism, supernatural, what makes me dislike fictional men, joss whedon, men

Comments 138

distractedone July 9 2009, 00:42:10 UTC

Going to read. Now!

glitterberrys July 9 2009, 00:43:59 UTC

You know where this aspect of human nature really is showing itself, as far as TV goes? Jon and Kate's divorce. EVERY GODDAMN PERSON is saying, well, she's such a bitch, she deserves it, everyone's sympathizing with him and taking his side when HE'S THE ONE WHO FUCKING HAD AN AFFAIR. WHAT THE HELL, PEOPLE?! And yet nobody seems to see it that way. I know it's not a scripted show, but it's the most blatant current example of that, IMO. (Mind, I hate them both, but I hate Jon more because he tries to play nicey nice when the cameras are on, but you can tell he's a total prick when we're not watching. Though I've only seen the show like three times ( ... )

prozacpark July 9 2009, 01:10:52 UTC

Dude, that is fucked up, but I have seen this so much. Where so many of the fandom break-ups are blamed on the women, where I'm just going, "Really, AM I WATCHING A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SHOW?" I'm not familiar with the show you're talking about, but so much yes to that! Though you should tell me so I can read up on it and judge it more harshly? ;)

Does that make sense? Like all women are secretly insecure about not being men after all. I find it really condescending and insulting.

Oh, yeah. It's the FemiNazi stereotypes. Because, you know, wanting to be treated like a human being is just like committing genocide! And it creates this whole...culture where women shy away from using the word feminist for the fear that they'll be thought of as man-haters. Hating women is internalized and has become part of our culture, but god forbid that anyone ever think that someone hates men? Sigh.

Of course, I don't believe that to be feminism at all, because in the end it's just insulting everyone, including women, but sadly that seems to ( ... )

glitterberrys July 9 2009, 01:35:52 UTC

See, I have issues with the idea that because so many people seem to hate women, that makes it okay to swing it around the other way and loathe men. Personally, if someone comes off as hating either gender, I'm going to think them a douche. The whole two wrongs making a right mentality...I don't buy it. And I definitely wouldn't want to adopt a label that would make people erroneously think ANYTHING of me, let alone that I hate a particular group of people based on something they can't control (gender, race, whatever). So I understand the worry that comes with the label of feminism ( ... )

prozacpark July 9 2009, 02:00:50 UTC

I don't think it's okay to hate men either. I was just pointing out the difference in perceptions as far as hating women and men is concerned. Neither is okay, in general, but one is a lot more accepted than the other. Which is all I meant to say by that.

I just happen to think that if we were to adopt another title, it, too, would develop similar negative connotations. I'm just not going to abandon something I like based on others' perception. Like, in feminist circles, no one ever thinks of that word as a bad thing, and it's the term that's still used in academic circles to describe that field of studies? I'm too used to it to abandon it based on what others are going to think of me. But I also understand why others might not want to, and I've been there, in the past.

Which is yet another great example of a small, obnoxious group of buttwipes RUINING IT FOR THE REST OF US. And, yes, this is exactly what bothers me and I just hate the thought of doing ANYTHING that's being dictated by those people. *shudders ( ... )

Thread 26

outtheairlock July 9 2009, 00:57:03 UTC

"Or how Achilles is a good warrior, but the text never sees him as a GOOD PERSON, as is the case with Hector, which makes me more judgmental towards Hector's assholery than towards Achilles. Not that either Hector or Achilles are greatly sexist, but..."

After writing an essay on "The Many Loves of Achilles" for my western humanities class, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. His interactions with women were full of Grade A whatthefuckery, and he was often portrayed as a man to be admired and respected.

Other than that, I agree with all of the above. The misogyny in fandom diminishes my hope for any significant changes in the way women are portrayed in media before I die of old age. The thing that usually motivates those changes is money, and why make those changes when the fans are still happy to give it to you?

prozacpark July 9 2009, 01:19:05 UTC

I...don't know about that? Like, the reason I love Greek mythology so much is that all the heroes (male and female) are fucked up. It's the one glaring difference between the Greek idea of heroism and the western idea of heroism: Greek heroes have to be extraordinary, and the western hero (which Aeneas is an example of) still has to be a good person. So if there are things out there that are portraying Achilles mainly as a GOOD person, they're not accurate to the Greek source, and are Western takes on the story. I've read those and completely found him hateful in them ( ... )

lilacsigil July 9 2009, 01:00:44 UTC

What I liked about Seasons 1-2 of Supernatural was that the absence of women was deliberate, and shown as harmful to the characters - not to mention the lack of misogyny from the main characters. Dean had a fairly sex-positive version of madonna/whore going (he looked up to the madonnas and enjoyed the company of the whores) but he was fairly distant from most women; meanwhile, Sam treated women as people. Season 3 killed that delicate but fascinating dynamic, replacing it with "whore whore stab stab bitch bitch".

But yes, the entire relationship dynamic of TV seems to be that the man is more important - if he's mean, of course there's a good reason. If she's mean, she's a bitch and must die. One reason why I'm really enjoying "The Tudors", as silly as it can get, is that it makes this dynamic absolutely explicit - the men are arguing politics while the women are fighting for their very lives. And the uber-male, the King, must be flattered and placated at all times.

prozacpark July 9 2009, 02:20:46 UTC

I never really engaged with Supernatural because of its lack of women, but I did watch and sometimes enjoyed the first twoish seasons, but the distinction you make between those and the later seasons is an important one. It may very well explain why so many of the people who loved the first two seasons totally disconnected from it after that.

I think the show's premise was always a bit problematic and given that, there did have to be a conscious effort to keep it from sinking into offensive sexism, and it was interesting in its efforts early on, but it got away from them at some point. At this point? It's so blatant that it's hard to believe that it's not intentional.

if he's mean, of course there's a good reason. If she's mean, she's a bitch and must die.

Yes, that. It's like how Snape is compelling and interesting while the same people would entirely hate Emma Frost?

I need to start watching Tudors again, especially now that it's out on DVD.

troubleinchina July 12 2009, 22:30:55 UTC

It's interesting you'd say that about Snape. I read a "let's talk about how these characters would be different if we flipped all the genders" once, and wow, did Snape become interesting to me immediately. I've mosty been bored by him in canon.

lady_ganesh July 13 2009, 14:06:52 UTC

You've totally got the difference between S1-2 and 3-4 of SPN. So depressing.

blighted_star July 9 2009, 01:10:57 UTC

Brava.

I never really thought about Tyrol, but I do agree with what you said.

Also, "good" women characters are usually boring.

prozacpark July 9 2009, 02:24:48 UTC

Tyrol's issues are latent and not at all acknowledged by the show so they're easy to miss, but I have been filled with hate for his character since he strangled Tory while everyone stood by and watched and later praised him for it.

Good characters are generally boring, period. And when flawed characters are portrayed by the text as completely good, that's just hate-inducing. Like, that's possibly the only reason I would ever hate characters.

blighted_star July 9 2009, 02:53:51 UTC

Even though I didn't like Tory, it was so obvious that the writers knew she was hated and that's why she was killed off. They pulled a Tess. That's why I'm not super thrilled with the outcome.