I'm on both sides of this, as....welllllllllll. P. Most of my characters that I do deep down love love love are kind of the very worst of the worst, and I don't know, it's an universal thing to me as much as specific
( ... )
I was once making a point about misogyny and how it is reflected in some statements made by Loki and another fan kind of started to subtly shut me down on that? Like 'oh no, I think he'd respect her now', or something, and I'm like errrr--I have no idea if that's even canonically true, I haven't seen it play out?
Yeah, there's a really telling - if not particularly surprising - set of mental processes playing out there. People immediately, unconsciously, jump from "villain wants to upset the in-universe bullshit status quo" to "the patriarchy is a bullshit status quo, therefore villain will be feminist!" When ofc there's no guarantee of that, the status quo is bullshit for many reasons. But on those prerational archetypal levels, The Order = Patriarchy to people, and I won't lie, I find the SMASH IT!!! impulse I see from people both gratifying and encouraging.
The horror genre, though some people would LARGELY DISAGREE--and have--with me about this, I do think it's about guilt, about the 'guilt' of the patriarchy, about some certain...things done
oooooh, tell me more.
But Thor is still the patriarchy, either way, with his hammer, you know. (And I like Thor a ton, so I say this with a grain).
I like him a lot too, but yeah, this is a part of the character that ought to be acknowledged, precisely because it's something that goes unspoken IRL. And you don't have to condemn Thor in order to point that out? Like, formative experiences where you are encouraged to develop confidence and build on your strengths and believe that your efforts will pay off...CAN actually bring out the best in someone? It doesn't mean "the strong are inherently better," it means that in a world set up like Thor's it's the strongest who have the most opportunity to develop their best selves.
I just do want to watch for character that come in the guise of upheaval but want to embrace the ideas that spurned them. (a
( ... )
I've written something like...what, three or four posts, "explaining" Matt Donovan? And I don't think anyone could ever form the impression that I was excusing him out of fannish love, LMAO
Yeah, yeah. WE ALL KNOW HOW IT REALLY IS.
But yeah, Matt is really interesting, precisely because he is so much like people IRL who can slide by without comment.
in many cases I almost think that if it's gotten to the stage of fandom "explaining," then that's a sign that at least conversation is happening because people realize there is something to have a conversation about?
Yes. EXACTLY. If a narrative is drawing in and keeping the attention of a critical mass of people who DO know what to look for and why to object to it, there's something going on in there, consciously or otherwise.
Only I'd say it goes much further than cases when "good" characters are doing "good" things? It's also about...IDK, status? Power? Entitlement?Oh, definitely. And even mere hindsight being 20/20. Like, every single one of the examples on the conversation I was
( ... )
The LOSER LOSER LOSER principle, as it will hereinafter be known, is why I'm so into Elijah being a massive asshole and an even bigger flop, lol. It goes SO FAR to illustrate how much giving off the impression of success can skew audience expectations.
I'm going to walk out on a limb here...years ago, I was working for the International Emmys, so I watched hundreds of shows from different countries. The difference in their worldviews was fascinating. There was one Swedish documentary from the point of view of child abusers. Their own narratives, told over landscapes, houses, so there was no actual picture of the men. The narrative only, which veered SO far from the accepted child abuser narrative that I was fascinated.
I'm a stage performer. So, at the time, I thought, "what if I was a child molester"? So I wrote a monologue as a male soccer coach molesting a ten year old boy. I went for it, and I went for the ending that felt right, which was the coach holding the little boy as he cried, saying, "It's okay, it's okay." A lot of my material is dark side. I haven't been abused sexually, but I understand the predatory-mixed-with-love instinct in myself, as well as fictional characters. And sometimes there is evil in good people, no
( ... )
Wow. I have so much admiration for the ability and willingness look unflinchingly and create the dark stuff. As much as I'm such a proponent of it being out there for understanding and discussion...well, I have no creativity anyway, so that's not much of a loss either way, I guess.
So many, many fans were DETERMINED not to believe that House had been abused or that his dad was a sadistic bastard. Otherwise they would have to accept that was one reason House was such an asshole
People really want there not to be ANY EXPLANATION AT ALL sometimes, and yeah. It's really aggravating. I remember thinking House did a really good job with that aspect of his characterization.
it's weird how cranky I am these days, even when people AREN'T doing annoying stuff, because I feel like I've got pent up annoyance over stuff like this? this being, the things you complain about in the post, and not the post itself, in case that's not clear
( ... )
part of the purpose of fiction, especially genre fiction, is that the various social structures that are really, really tightly in place to keep us from varying too far and to keep society chugging along are removed, and then people actually have to un-learn convention and re-learn how to reason morally and that type of thing
ooooh, yes. One of the biggest draws of genre fiction, I think. And making some effort toward that once in a while instead of just IS NOT IS NOT IS NOT!!!...makes things a lot more fun.
it's also a place to suspend not just disbelief, but maybe *some* judgment
BUT WHAT IS FUN ABOUT THAT OMG (Fandom gets so much easier when you're already convinced of your moral superiority, lol.)
Comments 43
Reply
Yeah, there's a really telling - if not particularly surprising - set of mental processes playing out there. People immediately, unconsciously, jump from "villain wants to upset the in-universe bullshit status quo" to "the patriarchy is a bullshit status quo, therefore villain will be feminist!" When ofc there's no guarantee of that, the status quo is bullshit for many reasons. But on those prerational archetypal levels, The Order = Patriarchy to people, and I won't lie, I find the SMASH IT!!! impulse I see from people both gratifying and encouraging.
Reply
Reply
oooooh, tell me more.
But Thor is still the patriarchy, either way, with his hammer, you know. (And I like Thor a ton, so I say this with a grain).
I like him a lot too, but yeah, this is a part of the character that ought to be acknowledged, precisely because it's something that goes unspoken IRL. And you don't have to condemn Thor in order to point that out? Like, formative experiences where you are encouraged to develop confidence and build on your strengths and believe that your efforts will pay off...CAN actually bring out the best in someone? It doesn't mean "the strong are inherently better," it means that in a world set up like Thor's it's the strongest who have the most opportunity to develop their best selves.
I just do want to watch for character that come in the guise of upheaval but want to embrace the ideas that spurned them. (a ( ... )
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
Yeah, yeah. WE ALL KNOW HOW IT REALLY IS.
But yeah, Matt is really interesting, precisely because he is so much like people IRL who can slide by without comment.
in many cases I almost think that if it's gotten to the stage of fandom "explaining," then that's a sign that at least conversation is happening because people realize there is something to have a conversation about?
Yes. EXACTLY. If a narrative is drawing in and keeping the attention of a critical mass of people who DO know what to look for and why to object to it, there's something going on in there, consciously or otherwise.
Only I'd say it goes much further than cases when "good" characters are doing "good" things? It's also about...IDK, status? Power? Entitlement?Oh, definitely. And even mere hindsight being 20/20. Like, every single one of the examples on the conversation I was ( ... )
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
Reply
I'm going to walk out on a limb here...years ago, I was working for the International Emmys, so I watched hundreds of shows from different countries. The difference in their worldviews was fascinating. There was one Swedish documentary from the point of view of child abusers. Their own narratives, told over landscapes, houses, so there was no actual picture of the men. The narrative only, which veered SO far from the accepted child abuser narrative that I was fascinated.
I'm a stage performer. So, at the time, I thought, "what if I was a child molester"? So I wrote a monologue as a male soccer coach molesting a ten year old boy. I went for it, and I went for the ending that felt right, which was the coach holding the little boy as he cried, saying, "It's okay, it's okay." A lot of my material is dark side. I haven't been abused sexually, but I understand the predatory-mixed-with-love instinct in myself, as well as fictional characters. And sometimes there is evil in good people, no ( ... )
Reply
So many, many fans were DETERMINED not to believe that House had been abused or that his dad was a sadistic bastard. Otherwise they would have to accept that was one reason House was such an asshole
People really want there not to be ANY EXPLANATION AT ALL sometimes, and yeah. It's really aggravating. I remember thinking House did a really good job with that aspect of his characterization.
Reply
Reply
ooooh, yes. One of the biggest draws of genre fiction, I think. And making some effort toward that once in a while instead of just IS NOT IS NOT IS NOT!!!...makes things a lot more fun.
it's also a place to suspend not just disbelief, but maybe *some* judgment
BUT WHAT IS FUN ABOUT THAT OMG (Fandom gets so much easier when you're already convinced of your moral superiority, lol.)
Reply
Leave a comment