Comments | pocochina: spn 4x8-4x16: Dean post

pocochina

spn 4x8-4x16: Dean post

Feb 25, 2012 11:27

OKAY. I STILL LOVE HIM, I SWEAR. But I'm having big issues with Dean's arc and with the way the show is handling it.

( there's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear )

supernatural, masculinity, spn: dean what even, man pain, sexual assault

Comments 13

angearia February 25 2012, 18:48:34 UTC

PREACH. YES. I've been having similar issh.

Well, and this:

It's not that he's screwed up by hell, or by his life before it.

See, it bugs me how it doesn't seem like he is all that screwed up? Just, that should've seemingly made a bigger dent in his behavior. We got a bigger reaction from him post near-death experience and the loss of his father.

I dunno. That scene when he confessed the truth to Sammy, I felt for him because of the DEAN PAIN and Jensen Ackles sold it, but I couldn't help thinking in the back of my mind how it felt inorganic. There's been signs of Sam's arc blazoned across the sky for the entirety of Season 4 which is why 1.9 and 1.16 are so AMAZING. With Dean, I'm just not feeling that same wicked attention.

I have huge, huge narrative and philosophical issues with the way Dean's specialness implicitly shits on everyone else who's been preyed on by the hellhounds. The only takeaway I get from his description of the torture is that nobody could possibly deserve it - but then all the yapping about the ( ... )

pocochina February 25 2012, 19:36:19 UTC

See, it bugs me how it doesn't seem like he is all that screwed up? Just, that should've seemingly made a bigger dent in his behavior. We got a bigger reaction from him post near-death experience and the loss of his father.

Mmmm, I agree. I'm not seeing how it was a good choice to make him have suffered forty years in the desert hell? Because if he were going to really deal with that, he'd be catatonic, which might drag on the plot a bit. Four months of unimaginable torment, and him giving in after three, that'd still be believable that it would mess with him. But I feel like the show doesn't have faith in us that we'd sympathize with that kind of suffering? So then it has to be TOTALLY UNKNOWABLY HUGE AND HORRIBLE.

The alternative reading is that no, actually, it's that his kill-or-be-killed life before hell was SO fucked up that he adapted to hell entirely too easily? But that throws a big old kink in the way we're supposed to admire freaking John. Which:

The only thing I can consider is that RIGHTEOUS MAN = WARRIOR MAN FOR GOOD ( ... )

angearia February 25 2012, 19:50:31 UTC

Okay, I'm maybe having thoughts on Dean? Gonna throw them your way ( ... )

angearia February 25 2012, 20:01:12 UTC

Also, to connect the disparate threads here, Dean in hell was without his emotional support. The only person who can draw Dean outside of his own lonely angsty pain is Sam ( ... )

Thread 6

snickfic February 25 2012, 19:23:03 UTC

Yes, the OTT-ness of the DEAN PAIN annoys me a lot, and the 38 minutes of subtlety + 2 minutes of tortured confession tacked onto the end. Gah. Like, I was almost okay with Dean's confession at the end of 4.10? But then we have basically the SAME SCENE at the end of 4.11, and it was just like, "Oh, plot's over, confession time nao ( ... )

pocochina February 25 2012, 19:40:57 UTC

YES, EXACTLY. I don't get this writing choice! When you have a character the audience can love and sympathize with so easily, you capitalize on that by NOT overdoing it. You overdo it when you have to because your character SUCKS. Dean is an excellent character with so much subtle development supporting him; this is just a distraction.

As far as I'm concerned, 4.16 is just the first in a cascade of SHEER FABULOUS.

SWEET. I'm putting some thoughts on the angels down so we can all cryptically point and laugh but I am SO EXCITED to see it.

goldenusagi February 25 2012, 22:00:01 UTC

WORSE THAN YOU COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE! And oh wait, it was ACTUALLY FORTY YEARS! And IT TURNED ME INTO ONE OF THEM! But no, ACTUALLY, I LIKED IT, I AM A MONSTER!!

The first time I watched, I rolled my eyes at the 40 years, becuase it seemed to just be for maximum angst. And the 'I liked it' part has always felt OOC for me. I can't wrap my head around it. Yes, I get finally breaking and agreeing to torture instead of being tortured, but...

If you dislike the glorifiction of John Winchester, there is good news in store for you.

I rather liked the fact that Dean was special in a way (the whole reveal in 4.16 that the reason the angels need him is because of what he set in motion), but I'll tell you now, him being the Righteous Man has nothing to do with how much man pain he has or how he's more righteous than anyone else in Hell.

pocochina February 25 2012, 23:20:05 UTC

I can kind of wank the "I liked it" part to be Dean feeling EPIC MANGUILT about not having hated it the whole time? His explanation about wanting to cause pain sounded more to me like...release, rather than enjoyment. But I can see how he wouldn't want to split hairs on it. But yeah, I shouldn't have to do interpretive backflips, especially when he has an EPIC MANGUILT monologue every half an hour.

If you dislike the glorifiction of John Winchester, there is good news in store for you.

EXCELLENT

ever_neutral February 26 2012, 05:18:00 UTC

lol, such agreement. It's annoying because it's OTT, and totally unnecessary. Show, I've never had trouble sympathising with Dean. Chill.

I will say that I think S5 is better with the portrayal of Dean's depression though? From what I remember, the show finally brought that stuff home. But YMMV.

pocochina February 26 2012, 15:20:24 UTC

I've never had trouble sympathising with Dean. Chill.

Exactly! He's such a love, there's no reason for this mess. I'm glad to hear the interesting stuff gets picked back up!

percysowner October 8 2012, 00:37:49 UTC

FWIW, I always thought the Righteous Man stuff was a lot of hooey!. When we eventually find out that the angels want the Apocalypse and they want Dean to play Michael and Sam to play Lucifer it makes even more sense. Telling Dean he is the Righteous Man helps push him into looking down at Sam who is falling off the righteous path, which the angels mention every time they get the chance. Alistair was the one telling Dean that John never broke on the rack, which I always saw as Alistair just keeping up with the torture routine, this time psychological instead of physical. Frankly, the John on the rack thing made no sense. We are told that demons were shoving demons trying to get out of Hell. If John didn't break he was still on the rack. And for the life of me I can't see Alistair turning his back for enough time for John to cut his bonds, hop off the rack, push to the head of the demon crowd, help kill Azazel and go toward the light. It makes no sense. I think everyone was just messing with Dean's mind so that he would see ( ... )