Will of the Empress and lesbian stereotypes

[peroxidepirate]

I've been pondering different things about Will of the Empress, since it just came up on Goldenlake's book club, and I just finished listening to it as an audio book. I wasn't active in Pierce fandom when it was published (I'd pretty much dropped offline after getting a condo and my first dog), but I do remember making my way back to the Dancing

Comments

[peroxidepirate]

Ooh, I didn't realize you'd actually talked to Pierce about it!! That's neat, and the "just go with how the characters are speaking" makes me more convinced she made the right choice in this.

You know, I never thought of the romance story as "leftover," but I can see it now that you mention it. And there easily could have been some mention of all the cool magical!metalwork she could do for Berenene.

I did notice Daja is the only one who doesn't have a book of her own at least in the planning stages (I feel like WotE belongs to Sandry a little more than the other three, and of course other books are planned for Briar and Tris), which leaves me with the same kind of skin-crawling feeling as plump nerdy Tris not getting any romance at all. OTOH, though, I have so much respect for Pierce so obviously trying to keep this a diverse group of characters and give them all the respect they deserve! I can always see another angle, but I'm more content with the results than not. I've always thought she has very good editors for the Circle

[peroxidepirate]

"Doesn't Rizu counter that? Between the two of them they represent both sides."

Yes, of course! Though that dynamic has its own set of problems, too. Er, not that their relationship specifically does, necessarily... but every fictional couple that could be construed as butch/femme also seems to face criticism for that. In the end, I fall on the side of, "Any representation is good representation, especially if they don't end up evil and/or dead."

*shrugs* Now I can't recall exactly where I read the criticism I'm railing against here anyway, which is slightly embarrassing. Eh.

And I don't think Tris needed a love story, necessarily. I don't think she would have been interested just then. But I'd like to have seen someone try and then run up against her (possibly deliberate) obliviousness. A throwaway conversation between her would-be suitor and one of her friends would satisfy me. (I'm thinking I have to fic this somehow, obviously.)

[littlemissgriff]

Well, and Daja's hardly the insulting ham-fisted Neanderthal stereotype people elbow themselves and laugh about in the hallways. She can take care of herself, has a career that makes her very fit, and prefers active hobbies. I've never considered Daja particularly 'Butch' as far as the term implies. Besides, you just listed three other gentler women who are also lesbian/bi.

Also, even if she WERE a stereotype - Usually, stereotypes exist for a reason. They aren't always accurate, but they usually appeared because there ARE people who, on some level or another, fit. Not perfect, because people aren't just a one-dimensional social assumption. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[peroxidepirate]

"I've never considered Daja particularly 'Butch' as far as the term implies."

Um, I think that was some terminology fail on my part. I used butch as shorthand for, "the narrative casts her as less feminine than most other women in the story."

But generally, WORD. (As usual. ;)

[boosette]

The thing that bothers me isn't necessarily that Daja is butch, but that her background gives the non-insignificant appearance that she's a Bucket of Minorities -- racially in the context of our world and culturally in the context of hers, cast out by her people, non-traditionally feminine and a butch-ish lesbian with a femme-ish girlfriend*? Which I would have absolutely no problem with in a real person, and doubtless there are real people whose real selves match up with Daja insofar as anyone can match up to a fictional kids' fantasy character and I don't for a minute think that that experience in invalid in a real person.

But. Daja isn't real, and in a fictional character it just feels a bit much to me, especially after Pierce played Hide the Queers** for so many years. (IMO there is no excuse, save executive meddling, for the narration using "very good friend" as code for "lover" or even "partner", especially with Kel or Briar as narrator. I feel like it diminishes both the presence of actual queer characters in the story as

[peroxidepirate]

"her background gives the non-insignificant appearance that she's a Bucket of Minorities"

Ohhhhhh, yes. I see that. I see that very clearly, now that you mention it. (Doesn't make me love Daja, exactly as she is, any less, and apparently I'm in the mood where I'll excuse all kinds of tropes/stereotypes on the grounds of, "It fits the characters and the story, so I'm good with it." But mileage varies so much on that. :)

"IMO there is no excuse, save executive meddling, for the narration using "very good friend" as code for "lover" or even "partner", especially with Kel or Briar as narrator. I feel like it diminishes both the presence of actual queer characters in the story as well as deeply profound platonic friendship."

SO MUCH WORD. Um, sad to say, I pretty much deliberately ignore that aspect of her work. I just hope it doesn't crop up again, now she's crossed the line of openly including queer characters in her books. (I take shameless advantage of it for shipping purposes, though. "But she said Raoul and Gary are good friends.

[boosette]

Doesn't make me love Daja...

Oh absolutely -- Daja is my favorite of the Circle, and her students Nia and Jory my favorites among the students and Frostpine my favorite among the teachers. (Daja's Book needs a reread so that Polyam can grow on me.) Pretty much everyone or thing that Daja touches receives a glow of love from me because she's so awesome. :) (And because I love her so much I'm extra-sensitive, I think, to narrative slights whether real or perceived.)

[cranky__crocus]

I never understood that argument either. I feel like if she had picked any other character it would have been a stereotype too - or a move made clearly just to avoid a different stereotype. But the whole thing that makes non-straightness a unique minority is that we cross all cultures and stereotypes - non-straightness can be found in any sort of person, no matter how surprising. Even homophobic, let-me-do-everything-not-to-appear-queer people; oftentimes especially them

[peroxidepirate]

"I feel like if she had picked any other character it would have been a stereotype too - or a move made clearly just to avoid a different stereotype."

Yes, this! This is why, any snark or criticism aside, 95% of the time I will embrace an author/creator's decision to make a character queer, no matter whom.

"I've also never found her THAT butch, which I guess just may be me being weird..."

Well, you're at least the second person to tell me that in comments, so I think it was some terminology fail on my part. I used butch as shorthand for, "the narrative casts her as less feminine than most other women in the story."

Also I have a real slippery hold on gender anyway. I think of myself as androgynous; if I had a different body type and presented myself the way I do, I wouldn't look like a girl at all. But other people seem to read me as unqualified female, which is always a little bit of a surprise to me. *shrugs*