Comments | pecunium: Croggled and appalled

pecunium

Croggled and appalled

Jun 20, 2007 14:49

Scalia (that, purported, paragon of, "originalism" who never saw a constitutional precept that didn't, conveniently, support his worldview) was at a panel on tortue and terrorism.

A Canadian justice said, “Thankfully, security agencies in all our countries do not subscribe to the mantra ‘What would Jack Bauer do?’”

To which Scalia replied, The ( Read more... )

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Re: Also shocking... pecunium June 21 2007, 05:56:23 UTC

Yeah Karl, they confessed to plots which were supposed to have happened before they were arrested (oh, and the tower he said was to be blown up, was the Liberty Tower. You may say it was a lisp, or something, except that the closeness of those words doesn't exisist in Arabic ( ... )

Re: Also shocking... karl_lembke June 21 2007, 06:54:28 UTC

Yes, they confessed to plots that hadn't been carried out yet. Maybe the plots were phantasms, invented to stop the torture.

Nevertheless, I cite Brian Ross, who interviewed contacts in the CIA - contacts opposed to torture, who called the information "actionable" (that is, more than just "smoke and mirrors"). Was Brian Ross lying or deluded? Were the CIA contacts lying or deluded?

I've linked elsewhere to a piece in the New York Times, in which torture yielded actionable, indeed life-saving, information. Was the reporter lying or deluded?

These are two cases which I've basically tripped over in the news. I've not been hunting for them, they just turned up. I submit they are the tip of the iceberg.

Now remember, your "utilitarian argument" is based on the premise that torture never works. You never qualify that statement ( ... )

Re: Also shocking... redbird June 21 2007, 12:41:15 UTC

Ask yourself this question, then: if a CIA team grabbed you off a street, blindfolded you, transported you somewhere random, and tortured you to get the details of an Al-Qaeda plot, how long could you hold out? How long do you think it would take you to convince them that you not only had no details they could use to prevent a crime, but were in fact innocent and unconnected to Al-Qaeda?

I am not willing to be placed under arrest when I have committed no crime and there is no plausible evidence that I have, therefore I do not consent to other people being arrested under those circumstances. Is that too absolute for you?

Re: Also shocking... karl_lembke June 21 2007, 19:16:46 UTC

"If a CIA team grabbed me?" I've commented in previous posts on what happened to my adopted nephew. He was grabbed by the police, and interrogated for six hours. He was not fed, and the police ate in front of him. Eventually, he confessed to a crime and was arrested.

He held out for six hours. In the same situation, I would hope to hold for longer - at least long enough for my lawyer to get there.

By Terry's standards, this is torture. His complete lack of reaction to this incident speaks volumes to me. He's perfectly willing to scream about theoretical torture in a legal conference, but he has no time for real torture in his back yard.
As long as we're throwing hypotheticals around, if an Al Qaeda team grabbed you off a street, blindfolded you, transported you somewhere random, and tortured you in order to get you to tape statements denouncing your country (or just for the hell of it, because you're an infidel), how long do you think you could hold out ( ... )

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