My only thought is that I saw the comment about how you have to default to slash to write something equal and lost the ability to read more. I know what she (I assume she) MEANT to say is that societal norms for relationship often result in unequal give/take but what was actually said was much closer to men and women not being equal, and women being secondary to men.
Yes, I know that's what they all mean to say, but I think it's downright infurating to say it like that, you know? Because... It's like saying "and it couldn't possibly be any other way, so we have to find alternatives rather than correcting the problem." Which drives me nuts.
I've been thinking about relationships between equals lately anyway and kind of wondering if there's some checklist or hard-and-fast objective definition, too, because I always just go on intuitive understanding but now that I think about it, others could see it differently from me.
Aside from you I've got at least two primary vanilla het shippers on my flist. One of it's doing it because she's religious so uncomfortable with any other dynamic, but comes out with some genuinely good vanilla het that isn't about equality issues at all. In fact, the relationship tends to be more on the woman's terms (granted this is Bleach, where that's actually possible).
The other one's a bad writer, but she just isn't really interested in slash except in Hetalia fandom.
Also you'd think people would default to femslash for equality.
I wrote this meandering reply to the second post while half asleep. I think I'm repeating what you said in an incoherent fashion, but anyway... my first off-the-cuff impression was as follows:
"No femslash?
Ya ain't hanging out with the right people, folks. There's well-written stuff out there. It's just harder to find, because a lot of slash is written by straight people who enjoy fantasizing about two people of the opposite gender. A straight slasher writing what he/she finds titillating in the opposite gender may present same-sex sex with a different emphasis than a gay or bi slasher. May being the operative term: the key is that there are no absolutes; it all comes down to individuals
( ... )
So much win for this post, in all ways. Every single thing you said hit it on the nail for me, including not taking rants about our free pr0n too seriously. :)
The thing that puzzles me the most -- even while I understand it -- is the great emphasis on m/m slash by people who aren't m/m.
I'm all for stretching boundaries and writing characters not like yourself. Fanfic is escapism. And writers who can only write characters like themselves are limited. But slash seems to be the new (or old) black.
Which, as far as I can tell, is because it's written by (often, young) straight women fantasizing about men.
Some of it is well done. A lot of it is execrable.
It just puzzles me at how little het there is, with (I assume?) so many het writers out there. Vanilla het relationships are, honestly, rather common in the real world. I'd expect a greater representation of them in fic, because that's what so many people know and enjoy. Nothing wrong with that, any more than there's something wrong with food that uses butter, since a great many
( ... )
Doesn't vanilla just mean nothing too kinky? I wasn't aware it had anything to do with role... I mean, kink doesn't necessarily have to involve a dom/sub dynamic, even.
I also don't think slash is or has ever been about equality - people who want equality and just write het relationships as equal. I mean, this is where Mary-Sue-izing girls comes from, and it's also where reworking female characters with more depth comes from.
I think the second essay is oversimplifying the reasons women like slash. I'm not going into 'my thoughts on yaoi' atm, but... it's more complex than that, dammit. :/
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I've been thinking about relationships between equals lately anyway and kind of wondering if there's some checklist or hard-and-fast objective definition, too, because I always just go on intuitive understanding but now that I think about it, others could see it differently from me.
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The other one's a bad writer, but she just isn't really interested in slash except in Hetalia fandom.
Also you'd think people would default to femslash for equality.
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I wrote this meandering reply to the second post while half asleep. I think I'm repeating what you said in an incoherent fashion, but anyway... my first off-the-cuff impression was as follows:
"No femslash?
Ya ain't hanging out with the right people, folks. There's well-written stuff out there. It's just harder to find, because a lot of slash is written by straight people who enjoy fantasizing about two people of the opposite gender. A straight slasher writing what he/she finds titillating in the opposite gender may present same-sex sex with a different emphasis than a gay or bi slasher. May being the operative term: the key is that there are no absolutes; it all comes down to individuals ( ... )
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The thing that puzzles me the most -- even while I understand it -- is the great emphasis on m/m slash by people who aren't m/m.
I'm all for stretching boundaries and writing characters not like yourself. Fanfic is escapism. And writers who can only write characters like themselves are limited. But slash seems to be the new (or old) black.
Which, as far as I can tell, is because it's written by (often, young) straight women fantasizing about men.
Some of it is well done. A lot of it is execrable.
It just puzzles me at how little het there is, with (I assume?) so many het writers out there. Vanilla het relationships are, honestly, rather common in the real world. I'd expect a greater representation of them in fic, because that's what so many people know and enjoy. Nothing wrong with that, any more than there's something wrong with food that uses butter, since a great many ( ... )
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But other than that, seconding the word.
Also biting down on my tongue really hard to not do my Aeris Characterization Rant (TM), since I'm sure everybody's heard it enough times.
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I also don't think slash is or has ever been about equality - people who want equality and just write het relationships as equal. I mean, this is where Mary-Sue-izing girls comes from, and it's also where reworking female characters with more depth comes from.
I think the second essay is oversimplifying the reasons women like slash. I'm not going into 'my thoughts on yaoi' atm, but... it's more complex than that, dammit. :/
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