Me, I was happy til this: He made some really bad parenting choices, I think, especially when it came to Dean.
I would like to know what was John supposed to do. Really. Single parent - in a precarious/dangerous life situation - what was he supposed to do?
*growls*
I never said John was perfect, not as a man, and not as a parent. But when 'choices' are the issues, I'd like to know what other choices he was supposed to have, given his situation. Sure, leaving Dean alone with looking after Sammy for a couple of days, wrong. Not the best of choices, no. But what was the alternative? NOT hunting? And what about the boys, then? Who would protect them/teach them how to protect them themselves? We have seen what has happened to the other Special Children, haven't we? Without Sam's knowledge and experience and training....maybe Sam would have caved, too, just like Ava, like the others.
yes, there were parenting mistakes, but what parent is perfect. And since John did bring up the boys, at least a part of the men they are is DUE TO HIM.
One learns to love, and be loved, and the difference between right and wrong, when he/she is young. Yes, Dean has grown up into a vagabond life where serious relationships and/or friendships are hard, if not impossible, but in part it was his conscient choice, to 'embrace the life' as he says to Gordon.
And if John - as he certainly did - influenced him in this, well, sacrificing your life for the sake of other innocents, isn't that the definition of a hero?
John tried to take care of his sons and save everyone he could: that's what they learned from him, and that's what the show tells us, again and again and again. It amazes me that the people making the show don't see that!
The most compelling evidence of the kind of father and man John was is the way his children turned out. So...lets look at Dean and Sam for a second.
Sam and Dean= hard, arrogant, self-centered, thoughtless, lazy, contemptuos, mean spirited, manipulative, greedy, selfish, or cruel? "NOT HARDLY!" you say? And yet they were raised, almost SOLELY by a man who was a NEGATIVE influence on them, and made BAD parenting choices!?
Jesus H. Christ on a Jelly Bean! What would they be like if they had been raised by a man who made GOOD parenting choices!!!!!??
I joined this community because I really like the John of fan fiction (and because I think JDM is unspeakably hot). More often than not John's written as a loving, committed father who holds his children's well-being above all things and I, like most others, find it endearing. I'd like to believe this is also true of canon!John, but the truth is the character has been written fairly haphazardly and I'm not sure even Kripke knew how he wanted to portray John in the first season
( ... )
way to verbose reply, part 1kavousiNovember 24 2007, 05:02:22 UTC
I'm sorry, I disagree with almost everything you say and if you could cite some examples to back what you meant, maybe I would see your points better. By no means am I saying you are wrong, but its just a total 180 from my opinion. Cool thing is that we arrive at the same place, just different paths to get there
( ... )
Re: way too verbose reply, part 2kavousiNovember 24 2007, 05:02:42 UTC
AHBL part 2... who did John climb out of hell to save....again?? Dean. I dont remember seeing John save Sam from being killed... not to say he wouldnt, but we definetly know he saved Dean, twice
( ... )
Please allow me to disagree with you on this one :)
...Dean's complete and total lack of self worth. Any man who could raise a boy to believe the only value his life holds is as protector of his brother has clearly dropped the ball in some capacity. Dean, as a HUMAN BEING has issues of all sorts, some of which stem from his relationship with his father. Among them I'm sure are self-esteem issues. BUT I honestly do NOT see Dean thinking his only value is as his brother's keeper. I'm not saying that Dean SHOULDN'T feel that way...I'm saying he DOESN'T feel that way. At least not as I see him
( ... )
I shared pretty much the sum total of my opinions on Dean in in my response to kavousi, but I will add this, in his confrontation with Bobby in AHBL 2 Dean says that sacrificing himself for Sammy will give his life meaning, and when Bobby asks, "Is that how little you think of yourself?" Dean offers no better reasoning than, "he's my brother".
That and the fact that Dean goes into crazy panic mode every single time his brother disappears leaves me amazed that Dean did let his brother go off to college. I think that had they known the character would evolve into the emotionally fragile uber-woobie that he is they may have written that part differently. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they go back and write how Dean struggled to function after Sam left at some point.
You are either confusing character portrayal with fanfic or reading into stuff that isnt there. Dean didnt evolve into a fragile uber woobie (wtf?), he has been the same since the get go. In fact, he has been portayed the same since a few weeks after the fire and John couldnt get him to stop sneaking into Sam's crib at night
( ... )
Comments 27
There we go, that's a perfect description.
Reply
He made some really bad parenting choices, I think, especially when it came to Dean.
I would like to know what was John supposed to do. Really. Single parent - in a precarious/dangerous life situation - what was he supposed to do?
*growls*
I never said John was perfect, not as a man, and not as a parent. But when 'choices' are the issues, I'd like to know what other choices he was supposed to have, given his situation. Sure, leaving Dean alone with looking after Sammy for a couple of days, wrong. Not the best of choices, no. But what was the alternative? NOT hunting? And what about the boys, then? Who would protect them/teach them how to protect them themselves?
We have seen what has happened to the other Special Children, haven't we? Without Sam's knowledge and experience and training....maybe Sam would have caved, too, just like Ava, like the others.
Reply
Reply
yes, there were parenting mistakes, but what parent is perfect. And since John did bring up the boys, at least a part of the men they are is DUE TO HIM.
One learns to love, and be loved, and the difference between right and wrong, when he/she is young. Yes, Dean has grown up into a vagabond life where serious relationships and/or friendships are hard, if not impossible, but in part it was his conscient choice, to 'embrace the life' as he says to Gordon.
And if John - as he certainly did - influenced him in this, well, sacrificing your life for the sake of other innocents, isn't that the definition of a hero?
Not a bad legacy, if you ask me.
*agrees with you fiercely*
Reply
John tried to take care of his sons and save everyone he could: that's what they learned from him, and that's what the show tells us, again and again and again. It amazes me that the people making the show don't see that!
Reply
Sam and Dean= hard, arrogant, self-centered, thoughtless, lazy, contemptuos, mean spirited, manipulative, greedy, selfish, or cruel? "NOT HARDLY!" you say? And yet they were raised, almost SOLELY by a man who was a NEGATIVE influence on them, and made BAD parenting choices!?
Jesus H. Christ on a Jelly Bean! What would they be like if they had been raised by a man who made GOOD parenting choices!!!!!??
Reply
Reply
Reply
Wings and halos and John... Hmm...I think I like the idea of the Summerlands or the Elysian Fields. Picts and Romans in those short skirts. *G*
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
...Dean's complete and total lack of self worth. Any man who could raise a boy to believe the only value his life holds is as protector of his brother has clearly dropped the ball in some capacity. Dean, as a HUMAN BEING has issues of all sorts, some of which stem from his relationship with his father. Among them I'm sure are self-esteem issues. BUT I honestly do NOT see Dean thinking his only value is as his brother's keeper. I'm not saying that Dean SHOULDN'T feel that way...I'm saying he DOESN'T feel that way. At least not as I see him ( ... )
Reply
That and the fact that Dean goes into crazy panic mode every single time his brother disappears leaves me amazed that Dean did let his brother go off to college. I think that had they known the character would evolve into the emotionally fragile uber-woobie that he is they may have written that part differently. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they go back and write how Dean struggled to function after Sam left at some point.
Reply
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment