As a Brit, I would say the best response is to acknowledge that there are indeed places in the UK without racism because there are plenty of communities where everyone is the same race/nationality etc but we all live in the wider community and country as well as our own small village or suburb or whatever, and there is certainly racism out there. What it basically means of course is that they don't understand the theory of institutional racism, because unless they don't watch the TV they have certainly been exposed to that!Well, I would go even further than that, because I am guessing that communities in which everyone is the same race/nationality exist because of racism, be it gentrification or white flight or whatnot. So saying that racism doesn't exist while living in a community that is most likely a direct product of racism is rather specious to me. It's sort of like saying that there is no racism or sexism in Hollywood because all the movies are about white men
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Well, I'd argue back about communities being all white -- I'm not saying that they aren't, but I'm saying that that is not a good reason to say that racism doesn't exist in that community, because it is ignoring a lot of larger issues. For example, the smaller number of POC in the UK has to do with immigration policies that up till the 1970s or so greatly restricted the immigration of POC by means of grandfather-type clauses. And I think a great part of it has to do with the fact that Britain went out and colonized other countries during the 1700s and 1800, as opposed to bringing the colonized back in (though of course there were a few cases).
This is all from quick Googling, so I'm probably missing a ton of the shades of grey, but by and large, I don't think people can just say that the UK has fewer POC and therefore less racism, as racism seems to have played a large part in the number of POC in the country in the first place. It also looks like immigration is a big issue, unsurprisingly with a focus on the immigration of POC.
Pretty much as the institutional oppression of people based on race.
So it is either a situation where you have to take a back seat until another Brit comes along or you can try to argue your points from your position of disadvantage.
My problem with this is that by and large, I find myself arguing these points with white British people. Which brings me to:
Who is in a better position to judge the prevalence of discrimination - the people feeling its effects or the people controlling the effects? Personally I firmly believe you have to take testimony from both sides of the equation or any conclusion is meaningless.I believe in taking testimony from both sides, but I also believe that those who have privilege generally really suck at noticing that they have privilege, whereas those who don't are extremely aware of the effects of discrimination. Which is why I have been arguing about this; I don't think I know the country better than you, but just from general feedback from British fans of
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As a general rule though I would say that if you have to choose between suspecting disadvantages caused by class and by race then class is more likely to be the culprit.
I vehemently disagree with this, and I think the comparison of oppressions is at best pointless and usually a way to obscure whatever oppression people are talking about. And when I am talking about racism, I am talking about institutional racism.
On LJ, my impression is that there is a central core of, primarily American, well educated left-wing thinkers who talk about racism all the time in public, another group who link to various race related articles with or without comment, and everyone else will only touch on the subject directly in private and that only occasionally.
I suspect that our meters for discussion of race may vary or we aren't in very similar circles. I found in my four years on LJ that race was almost never touched upon, or if it was, it would lead to a giant wankfest, a la SGA. Sometimes people would critique shows on race, but the comments would get increasingly virulent. And I think this is where experiences differ; ever since I have been on LJ, I have been painfully aware that the main fannish world is extremely white and extremely uncomfortable with being called out on that fact. This is, of course, not noting groups like deadbrowalking that make themselves spaces for fans of color. But in general, if people just stumble into fandom, they stumble into a very white
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Race relations and racism are all about motives.Wow, I totally disagree. I've found that bias can be perpetuated even when no one involved intends it
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This is all from quick Googling, so I'm probably missing a ton of the shades of grey, but by and large, I don't think people can just say that the UK has fewer POC and therefore less racism, as racism seems to have played a large part in the number of POC in the country in the first place. It also looks like immigration is a big issue, unsurprisingly with a focus on the immigration of POC.
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Pretty much as the institutional oppression of people based on race.
So it is either a situation where you have to take a back seat until another Brit comes along or you can try to argue your points from your position of disadvantage.
My problem with this is that by and large, I find myself arguing these points with white British people. Which brings me to:
Who is in a better position to judge the prevalence of discrimination - the people feeling its effects or the people controlling the effects? Personally I firmly believe you have to take testimony from both sides of the equation or any conclusion is meaningless.I believe in taking testimony from both sides, but I also believe that those who have privilege generally really suck at noticing that they have privilege, whereas those who don't are extremely aware of the effects of discrimination. Which is why I have been arguing about this; I don't think I know the country better than you, but just from general feedback from British fans of ( ... )
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I vehemently disagree with this, and I think the comparison of oppressions is at best pointless and usually a way to obscure whatever oppression people are talking about. And when I am talking about racism, I am talking about institutional racism.
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(The comment has been removed)
I suspect that our meters for discussion of race may vary or we aren't in very similar circles. I found in my four years on LJ that race was almost never touched upon, or if it was, it would lead to a giant wankfest, a la SGA. Sometimes people would critique shows on race, but the comments would get increasingly virulent. And I think this is where experiences differ; ever since I have been on LJ, I have been painfully aware that the main fannish world is extremely white and extremely uncomfortable with being called out on that fact. This is, of course, not noting groups like deadbrowalking that make themselves spaces for fans of color. But in general, if people just stumble into fandom, they stumble into a very white ( ... )
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Am too tired to write more, so just... word.
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