Anti-Semitism

[onionsoupmix]

So, did you know that it is a positive mitzvah to charge interest to a gentile?

The 198th mitzvah is that we are commanded to charge interest to a non-Jew and only then lend him money, in order that we not assist him nor give him rest. Rather we should cause him [financial] loss, even with the kind of interest that we are forbidden from taking from

Comments

[hamaskil]

He wanted Jews to be universally hated and seen in such derogatory ways? It kind of makes the anti-semitism understandable.

Not only him. Look what is said about certain Shneur Zalman of Liadi, I guess you're heard of him:

During the French invasion of Russia, while many Polish Hasidic leaders supported Napoleon or remained quiet about their support, Rabbi Shneur Zalman openly and vigorously supported the Tsar.

While fleeing from the advancing French army he wrote a letter explaining his opposition to Napoleon to a friend, Rabbi Moshe Meizeles:[11]
“ Should Napoleon be victorious, wealth among the Jews will be abundant. . .but the hearts of Israel will be separated and distant from their father in heaven. But if our master Alexander will triumph, though poverty will be abundant. . . the heart of Israel will be bound and joined with their father in heaven. . . And for God's sake: Burn this letter.[12]

[onionsoupmix]

omg. I looked this up and it seems to be supported by the sources. Here's a chabad source that accepts it but leaves out the "burn the letter" part :)

http://www.shturem.org/index.php?section=artdays&id=1846

[hamaskil]

So was he saying that antisemitism and poverty is good for us (i.e. helps prevents assimilation, keeps us from other ideas)? If so, why do some chabadniks (and I emphasize only some) seem to yell antisemitism when a building permit is denied or someone gets arrested? Shouldn't they be applauding antisemitism if its good for us in an indirect way ?

[beaniekins]

I think Judaism in general would be a lot better if more people were bothered by things and took the time to look things up and have open, honest discussions.

[ymarkov]

A dollar for a Coke is covered by darkei shalom and mi-pnei eiva. No problem there.

It's better to go beyond Sefer ha-Mitzvot and look directly in the relevant halakhot - "Our Sages, however, forbade a Jew from lending money to a gentile at a fixed rate of interest beyond what is necessary for him to earn his livelihood."

[onionsoupmix]

I saw this before I wrote the post. It didn't really satisfy my questions although it did mitigate it somewhat. The problem is a) that the general sentiment is still there- we are supposedly required to charge interest to ensuree financial losses to the gentile and b) this is a very vague standard. If you ask the average frum Jew who pays tuition for 5 kids and buys CY food what fixed interest rate he needs to charge to sustain his family, it's not going to be a pleasant answer.

[ymarkov]

On the contrary, this may be your answer. The average frum Jew who, etc. is not going to have enough money to lend to live on the interest, even if he charged 40% to 70% per annum that was common before modern times. We're talking professional moneylender here, and business is business.

[onionsoupmix]

What makes you think that this "mitzvah" applies only to professional moneylenders? It doesn't seem that way from the text...

[anonymous]

> The 198th mitzvah is that we are commanded to charge interest to a non-Jew and only then lend him money, in order that we not assist him nor give him rest. Rather we should cause him [financial] loss,

He didn’t understand basic economics. Which is fine, given that modern economic theory hadn’t yet developed. The sentiment, of course, is disturbing.

It’s interesting that people at the time understood perfectly well renting land or animals, but not renting capital.

> Maybe what bothers me is the historical aspect of it, the fact that Jews were always seen as moneygrubbing usurious bankers who sucked the life out of the poor gentiles around them. And now it turns out there's a mitzvah to behave like this? Ugh.

You may have that the wrong way around. By the time the Rambam was writing, Jews were widely seen moneygrubbing usurious bankers. Making it a mitzvah to charge interest to non-Jews justifies the already-existing condition.

G*3

[onionsoupmix]

You may have that the wrong way around. By the time the Rambam was writing, Jews were widely seen moneygrubbing usurious bankers. Making it a mitzvah to charge interest to non-Jews justifies the already-existing condition.

Yeah, but theoretically the rambam is not inventing this, just codifying existing law from the gemara, right?

[ymarkov]

Precisely.

chabad, since day one of their alter rebbe

[stjust]

is a type of religion that is convoluted and pilpulistic beyond any reason