Conservadoxy

[onionsoupmix]

With several notable exceptions,  Orthodox Jewish law has been frozen for the past 1600 years.

There is no Sanhedrin and no governing body and no one leader can take it upon himself to authorize important and needed changes. Instead, we all just cling to traditions passed down over the centuries and convice ourselves that this is authentic Judaism

Comments

This is travelling down a thorny road...

[hipstamom]

mindycl said, "You cant compare US law with Divine Law. You just can't."

One can get in to whole big mess of whether halacha is truly divine law. I'm not but you can see how one could jump to that conclusion. Heck, plenty of people have jump into that line of thinking.

My thing is that people get up in arms about meaningless stuff. Denim is assur, etc... How many times have you seen Jewish people ragging on each other because they don't hold like they THINK they should? If people can't even agree to come together for the simplest of matters; there's no way a Sanhedrin could be put together let alone usher in Moshiach!

Re: This is travelling down a thorny road...

[onionsoupmix]

yep, I have another post on just this topic coming up very soonish.

Re: This is travelling down a thorny road...

[hipstamom]

The interesting thing is how some people confuse the word of Hashem and use that to put others down. There is something quite chilling about that.

[anonymous]

Some of the comments here already showed that indeed the Jewish law has not been frozen in time and I really am surprised that OSM made such an oversimplified statement. A quick look in Igrot Moshe for example will show you how Rav Feinstein weighs oposing and diversified opinions of rabbies scattered in time in that long era of 1600 years and in the end comes to a conclusion that might be different then all of them anyway. Another major example is the Herem of the Mahara"m against bigamy. This was done about 1000 years ago, well within the 1600 stated period. The view of the Halakha as something monolithic and frozen in time is so untrue that somebody who states it should be considered either an ignoramus or a fraud or worse, a propagandist for some sinister cause, regardless if that person is Orthodox or otherwise

[onionsoupmix]

I did say: with several notable exceptions... and then pointed out the bigamy edict as one of them.

My point is that change dependent on authority is likely to be not very significant, where as change based on reinterpertation of the text is likely to be greater, but no one is willing to do it because the sanhedrin is not here. In American law, if the supreme court simply reinterprets a previous common law decision, it is less likely to lead to meaningful change than if they reinterpret a phrase in the constitution.

[anonymous]

The philosophy (which I called ideology in the previous entry) of the Jewish law as the Orthodox see it is that there is an unbroken chain of the law as it was given by the divine source. Therefore the traditional understanding binds us. The American law, being decidedly written by humans and decided upon by the sovereign people could be changed (at least theoretically) by several ways such as amending the Constitution (pretty hard to do,) changing the law by the legislature (pretty easy,) issuing an executive order (easier,) or having nine random unelected people change it according to their majority's ideology, regardless of what the actual words of the constitution simply say (totally irresponsible in times

[anonymous]

"change based on reinterpertation of the text is likely to be greater, but no one is willing to do it because the sanhedrin is not here

Comparing Halakha to US Law - Useful Model, But Has Its Limits

[ymarkov]

(From "The Horizontal Society", Appendix 10

Re: Comparing Halakha to US Law - Useful Model, But Has Its Limits

[onionsoupmix]

The Judicial authority to interpret and review the Tora by the Supreme Court is explicitly authorized by a provision in the Tora (Dt 1 7:8-13). The authority of the US Supreme Court to interpret and review the Constitution is not enumerated in the Constitution, but, rather, derives from its own ruling, Marbury v. Madison, in which it assumes judicial supremacy in constitutional interpretation and the authority to impose its constitutional interpretations on other branches of government. The difference is huge. The inability of Jews to assimilate to other political, religious, or legal systems is a corollary of having rejected the notion that authority is the effect of power; that is, violence

I don't understand why this difference is considered so critical, please explain.

Re: Comparing Halakha to US Law - Useful Model, But Has Its Limits

[ymarkov]

I think he's saying that the USSC has seized the power it holds, and has kept it since because it's convenient for the rest of the power structure. The result is benign, but different from how Jews established their legal governance, that is, by people's choice and against the "might makes right" principle. Thus, the future rabbis have always been drawn from the entire societal spectrum, while judges appointed by the power structure are not to be considered such.

(This is a point he's making through the entire book, so this is only a small part.)

Re: Comparing Halakha to US Law - Useful Model, But Has Its Limits

[sethg_prime]

The Constitution vests the "judicial power of the United States" in the Supreme Court and its subordinate courts in Article III, and declares itself to be the "supreme law of the land" in Article VI; I find it hard to see how these clauses could not be construed to give the Supremes the power to invalidate laws that conflict with the Constitution.

(And of course numerous constitutional amendments have been passed since 1803, so Congress has had ample opportunity to overrule Marbury v. Madison, and has chosen not to.)

It’s time to develop your split personality.

[24816]

I could suggest to you that since you resonate on this particular spark http://machanaim.org/philosof/kook/b2-e.htm then it is up for you to find a kosher way to implement it, e.g. build up respect for both worthy Rabbis and budding Sanhedrin http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/index.php/The_Re-established_Jewish_Sanhedrin . For example you could set up rabbinical evaluation site based on criteria coordinated with Sanhedrin

Exceptions:

[arielsokolovsky]

B"H
There have been some notable exceptions listen to this lecture for one example:

Reflections on the Authority of the Moroccan Rabbinate

http://www.michtavim.com/Marc_B_Shapiro_Authority_of_Moroccan_Rabbinate_March_20_2007_YU.WAV

Is that the will of God? A frozen system? Or does the will of God somehow change as society evolves?The system is not really frozen just other than those exceptions it evolves somewhat differently

look who is talking

[arielsokolovsky]

לַמִּינִים וְלַמַּלְשִׁינִים אַל תְּהִי תִקְוָה וְכָל הַזֵּדִים כְּרֶגַע יאבֵדוּ. וְכָל אויְבֶךָ (סמאל) וְכָל שׂונְאֶיךָ (לילית) מְהֵרָה יִכָּרֵתוּ. וּמַלְכוּת הָרִשְׁעָה מְהֵרָה תְעַקֵּר וּתְשַׁבֵּר וּתְכַלֵּם וְתַכְנִיעֵם בִּמְהֵרָה בְיָמֵינוּ:
בָּרוּךְ אַתָּה הָ' , שׁובֵר אויְבִים וּמַכְנִיעַ זֵדִים:
Eshkol Hakofer

Re: look who is talking

[arielsokolovsky]

B"H
What does the 19th brocha of the Amida have to do with this topic?

What does the 19th brocha of the Amida have to do with this topic?

[arielsokolovsky]

to paraphrase massechet brochos,
"upon seing a self proclaimed meen, one recites birkat haminim beshem umalkhus!"
that's what!