Upsetting conversation

[omnifarious]

I became really angry over some things ladyt37 said today. She criticized my friends in a way that was sort of fair, but also not, and rather exceedingly rude in my opinion. I have my theories about what's going on here, but those aren't for public consumption. Aside from that, I would like to talk about what she said.

Her specific criticism was that

Comments

[mystic_savage]

Classism bothers me more than racism or sexism because our own entitlements are so invisible to us. Until we fail. I'm acutely aware of where I am in the class structure, because I'm not in the class that I was brought up in. Also, I'm acutely aware of my privilege, aware that I'm not an 8 year old working long days on a cocoa plantation, aware that when I buy a mars bar, I'm contributing to that kind of economic oppression that results in people who have never tasted chocolate picking cocoa beans in horrible conditions.

Staying aware of class structure and real people and how they differ from the images of the people we see in the media or amidst just our friends -- that's one of the big reasons I think taking the bus is a good thing. And I think complaining is a good thing...it raises awareness...it allows one to find companions who have similar complaints...and that kind of community building is a small step on the road to activism. So yeah...bring on the complaining. Particularly about blind capitalism and its consequences.

I find it interesting

[cooncat]

...that this post starts off being unhappy about her comments about your friends, then turns into criticism of hers.

Is your point that her friends are no better than your friends, therefore her point is moot?

I might feel persecuted if my friends were judged in one lump, which is one reason why I suppose I don't gravitate to one extended group of them.

Re: I find it interesting

[omnifarious]

Well, I felt kind of attacked. And I sort of what to defend my friends, because my friends are one of the things in the world I'm the proudest of. Perhaps counter-attacking isn't the most productive strategy here, but I'm not sure what else to do.

And I really do feel that the upper class in our society is currently rather broken in a number of important ways. If you look at my Open Source projects, and a lot of my personal philosophy about things, I work hard to create things that either discourage the formation of hierarchical power structures or encourage the dismantling of existing ones.

Re: I find it interesting

[omnifarious]

I feel that frequently people who are poor are making choices that directly lead to their state and that they frequently continue to make poor choices over and over again.

I also think that intervention programs that do not address this fundamental issue are bound to fail. And I think state run intervention programs are inherently bad because they both have a tendency to hand out money without helping people make better choices, and because they tend to create situations in which the people are even less likely to make good choices either because they feel obligated or feel like they are a burden.

The state is run by people with a lot of political and economic power. It will always choose to do things such that those people stay in power and the people who are not in power will never get it.

The state is a tool for maintaining the concentration of wealth and power I complain about. It would be against the interests of the state for it to be otherwise.

I guess if you find these opinions of mine disappointing, you'll just have to

[oniaka]

Classes have always existed. They always will. And there is nothing that we can really do about it. And every class, will be complaining about every other class at some point.

The poor will complain about the frivalty and waste of the rich, and how they dont care about anyone but themselves. The rich will complain that the poor are the scum of the earth and the criminal element of society. And everyone in between will be complaining about them both.

We can, through activism, create more classes, or lessen the number of them. But there will always be classes. One just has to look for their own happiness within their class and stature. If you can do that, then the whole class system wont bother you.

We are all dealt our hand of the cards of life. It is how you choose to play your hand that matters.

Class structure

[oniaka]

Actually there have not "always" been classes. Class structure and the concentration of power seems to occur (historically) with the advent of "civilization". Its first known occurence is in Sumer, about 3100 bce. This concentration of power is thought to have been a response to full scale warfare between city states, as previous to this period all signs in the area suggest a fare more egalitarian culture.

This point is supported by the fact that most tribal structures, in aboriginal cultures tend to be egalitarian. So the idea that class has always been with us and that there are no alternatives is mistaken.

The difficulty is seeing outside ones cultural perspective (consensus reality), to see other choices or even that other choices exist. The consensus reality we are raised in, saturated with and have trained our brains (engrams) to accept makes this very difficult, even for people trained to do it. Our options become limited by what we believe are the possibilities.

-Artos

Re: Class structure

[oniaka]

Since you decided to point out how wrong I was, allow me to point out the flaw in what YOU said.

Even in tribal communities and such, there is still a class system. There are classes seperated by sex, and age if nothing else. There are those that work the fields, there are those that do crafts, there are the hunters, ect. These are all different classes, with different rights, privaledges, and responsabilities.

Using big colorful speech, and citing crap from thousands of years ago that would not work today in our particular clime, does not prove your point of view.

Re: Class structure

[oniaka]

Well, that was an odd response