Theological Notebook: NYT Op-Ed on Cleaning Up Canonization in the Catholic Church

[novak]

I have to thank jucundushomo for giving me the heads-up on this New York Times op-ed that James Martin, S.J. turned in. Tim was right on target in knowing I'd be interested in that I have complained in times past that the official canonization process in the Catholic Church has gotten corrupted by being politicized. Certainly, I merely have to think back a

Comments

miracles. please help my understanding

[seraphimsigrist]

just a note on the side question of the miracles
that I have never understood how it was felt one could
establish a cause effect relation between healing
and saint.
It seems to be well 'we have made these ground rules
so if someone prays and God heals them he KNOWS
we are going to use it as evidence for the canonization
of Leibowitz ,or whoever'
But couldnt God say "well I know Leibowitz wasnt much
of a holy fella but by gosh Im going to heal this person
even if the fools use it as evidence, healing this
person for her/his sake only. even their foolishness
cannot stop my act."

or am I being totally over the top here,?
but it has always troubled me and I wonder what
you would respond?
+Seraphim

Miracles, Prayer, Cause-Effect, Nature/Supernature, Complex Systems, Chaos Theory, etc.

[novak]

In fact, I'm rather of a mind with you, as far as the strict logic of it goes. The category of "miracle" has always been hazy with regard to unexplained healings, although the timeliness of connecting such an event with the prayful intercession made to some "sainthood-pending" figure can itself beg questions.

But the pure fact of the matter is that we cannot establish a cause-effect relationship with any sort of prayer. We have no "control group" in a historical context to see what would have happened in any given case with or without prayer. This is of course the main limitation of scientific method as a whole: it cannot be used to establish the veracity of any historical event, not even those we remember from yesterday. And yet, we are commanded to pray by Christ, and intercessory prayer of all kinds has always been a feature of the Jewish and Christian experience and Tradition

Re: miracles. please help my understanding

[novak]

Hm. I was sleepy when I wrote the above and perhaps wandered a bit. One thing I meant to say was that, as regards canonization, I'm much more inclined toward a primitive "acclamation" model, myself (the election of bishops would again be quite interesting and lively in this way, too) than the idea that this is some curial or papal prerogative.

Most of the people officially canonized have little connection to me because I have no awareness of them, historically, although I certainly grow to know and love new historical figures over time. The guardedness for fear of some later-revealed sin in the person's life? Well, if that criterion has anything to do with sainthood, then all of Christianity is a wash, as far as I can see. So Thomas Merton ranks high in my litany of the saints, for the effects that he's had in my life, even though - and maybe augmented by - his having fallen in love with a nursing student while in the hospital. Sanctity isn't determined by a lack of a particular "fall," (especially ones involving romantic

making saints

[seraphimsigrist]

thank you for the cogent and good replies
I have no answers to how it should be done really
but the demand for 3 miracles seems artificial and
yet I could understand that it is part of the balance
of the thing...I think some in fact are saints for their
historical importance(we have fr alexis toth as saint
who brought you know a good many from the eastern rite
to the early oca. as someone said the priests wanted
sex and the laity wanted to control the money. if he
is ,and indeed he is, a saint it is surely mostly for
this accomplishment) and similar examples in the
western church of course. also justianian and theodora
etc
or for heroic virtue, well that is to say for being
a notably good person.
and hopefully being pardigmatic etc
on this last count one might question some attractive
figures...as being too paradoxical or skewed somehow.
probably no model of selection is perfect...

[novak]

You know, I kinda did, too, when I later looked at it more closely in a newsstand edition....

(Time to edit the above....)