I don't think magic requires divinity; spending a few years as a chaos magician deeply involved me in the psychological model of magic to the point, sadly, of solipsism
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Should also add--I spent a number of years waffling over whether my beliefs were "valid", because they couldn't be empirically proven/didn't follow existing mythologies/were based a good deal on UPG and personal experience. I finally decided that A) no matter how hard I try, I'm never going to be able to prove my beliefs to anyone but myself, and there will always be somebody who kvetches about authenticity, B) I'm not claiming my beliefs are anything but what they are culturally, historically or otherwise, and C) I am a lot happier and get a lot more out of my experiences when I allow myself to believe that they are true for me instead of worrying all the time whether what I'm doing is objectively correct or not. There's a time and place for historical/etc. accuracy, but there's also a point where you have to stop worrying so damned much about what other people are saying/thinking.
After some years of mostly-apathetic paganism, I'm not convinced that there's such a thing as deity. To be honest, I'm not convinced that there's such a thing as 'magic', beyond tricking yourself with a psychological placebo.
Which isn't to say that I don't trick myself with a psychological placebo now and again. I just don't know if there's any effect outside of my own head. I'm not even sure if it matters one way or the other.
I've come to the nebulous decision that I do believe magic exists, but I don't believe it's a common skillset. I'd say I believe about ... I don't know ... 93.7%, maybe, of people who believe they are practicing magic are, in fact, practicing a psychological placebo type of experience.
Maybe that will be a future post -- how people specifically define magic, what they think it's capable of, and whether it's something anyone is capable of. That might get more EXCITING.
I know from reading that your world is busy these days and I can understand why you aren't spending much energy on this kind of thing.
So my question, I guess directly, is if you don't think it matters one way or the other, why do you do it? Or do you even bother any more? I know that I have been too busy with what I consider Real World Considerations that I haven't dragged out the Witch Hat or even really my Pagan Hat in months. I haven't bothered because I want to have my mundane shit handled before I mess with anything that is an energy expense.
You know, I actually agree with you and should probably have noted that in my original comment -- I think in theory, magic could be created either way. With deity or without. Given the first responses here, though, I sho' hope some deity-only people offer their opinions because THEIRS are the ones I actually find most interesting. I hear my own opinion all the time.
Could you please explain this concept to my father? Pretty please? *headdesk*
In my case it depends on the working. There are times that I think I should involve Them and other times I think I have it covered. Then again, it seems more like petitioning when I use deity during workings. More of an invocation and asking for a favor than using them. Make sense?
I am still chewing on Wibbble's comment and trying to come up with the wording of the question I want to ask him.
3 in the afternoon is too late in the day to blame coffee for brain damage...
I hope you are consuming your coffee from a French press, as the little known Coffee God Irwin intended.
I don't think it would be AS common in the NFP, but what often gets me in deity-inclusive magic is the plug-and-play variety of things. "Who should I use if I want to do X?" I have a lot more respect for people who believe deity is required for magic, when they're talking about deities with whom they have some kind of personal relationship with. It would seem to me a deity who was going to help someone produce magic should be getting more in return than a once-in-a-while ritual where they maybe get some incense burnt for them or something.
Actually, one discussion that's always fascinated me is the magic requires the involvment of divinity, versus magic is self-powered debate. I'm firmly in the magic does not require deity camp, myself. I don't think this will only require the edge of the seat, but where do y'all stand on that, and why?
I think both methodologies have their virtue. There is no debate for me. They produce different results, when practiced appropriately. Whether Divinity is involved or not, magic practiced in a healthy paradigm is not harmful--the source of the energies is simply different.
That said, I prefer the involvement of Divinity, because it is comfortable.
However, I think a lot of people practice magic ignorant of structure and process, and they endanger themselves by drawing from their own essence. Over time, because they don't have a connection to a source, they slowly hollow out, and that certainly makes for a lot of nutty magical people.
I think it depends on the pratitioner, what they're trying to accomplish and their perceptions of how the universe works. One person's 'god' is another person's battery
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Which isn't to say that I don't trick myself with a psychological placebo now and again. I just don't know if there's any effect outside of my own head. I'm not even sure if it matters one way or the other.
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Maybe that will be a future post -- how people specifically define magic, what they think it's capable of, and whether it's something anyone is capable of. That might get more EXCITING.
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I'm just happy that some things seem to work, psychological placebo or otherwise.
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So my question, I guess directly, is if you don't think it matters one way or the other, why do you do it? Or do you even bother any more? I know that I have been too busy with what I consider Real World Considerations that I haven't dragged out the Witch Hat or even really my Pagan Hat in months. I haven't bothered because I want to have my mundane shit handled before I mess with anything that is an energy expense.
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And I told you, I have a whole pile of dead horses. Some smell better than others. This one, I like. I like watching this conversation.
I fall on the side of magic without deities = Just Fine AND magic + gods = Just Nifty, too. I understand both sides of it.
Holy crap, I am getting splinters in my ass from this fence!
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Could you please explain this concept to my father? Pretty please? *headdesk*
In my case it depends on the working. There are times that I think I should involve Them and other times I think I have it covered. Then again, it seems more like petitioning when I use deity during workings. More of an invocation and asking for a favor than using them. Make sense?
I am still chewing on Wibbble's comment and trying to come up with the wording of the question I want to ask him.
3 in the afternoon is too late in the day to blame coffee for brain damage...
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I don't think it would be AS common in the NFP, but what often gets me in deity-inclusive magic is the plug-and-play variety of things. "Who should I use if I want to do X?" I have a lot more respect for people who believe deity is required for magic, when they're talking about deities with whom they have some kind of personal relationship with. It would seem to me a deity who was going to help someone produce magic should be getting more in return than a once-in-a-while ritual where they maybe get some incense burnt for them or something.
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I think both methodologies have their virtue. There is no debate for me. They produce different results, when practiced appropriately. Whether Divinity is involved or not, magic practiced in a healthy paradigm is not harmful--the source of the energies is simply different.
That said, I prefer the involvement of Divinity, because it is comfortable.
However, I think a lot of people practice magic ignorant of structure and process, and they endanger themselves by drawing from their own essence. Over time, because they don't have a connection to a source, they slowly hollow out, and that certainly makes for a lot of nutty magical people.
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