[filter; angels]andaclatterAugust 31 2011, 22:14:57 UTC
She walked into my hands, Michael. Free fucking will~
It's probably just as well that it's not up to you, brother, because that's not your jurisdiction. And please note that I'm not telling you who can and can't be saved. Would I fucking presume? I'm simply stating that everyone can't be saved and angelic intervention can only go so far. Let the children make their fucking mistakes, brother.
[filter; angels]archistrategosAugust 31 2011, 22:30:21 UTC
Fell. The odds were stacked against her. Don't pretend like you ever tried to be even-handed.
It's less of a priority to you than it is for me. If it wasn't part of your nature to prey on humanity then you'd understand why she, in particular, needs more guidance. No, she's not being coddled, Samael, but there is a reason why she deserves to be protected from the damage you'll cause. I've allowed her to make her own mistakes, but I'd rather she make her mistakes away from you.
[filter; angels]andaclatterAugust 31 2011, 22:39:25 UTC
I'll not contradict you. She's the original fucking fallen woman but don't pretend like I was playing the rebel angel. I was playing the role I was given and don't fucking forget it.
Guidance is one thing, Michael. Even protection is understandable (to a fucking point) but what do you hope to achieve? You planning on moulding this woman until she is acceptable to you? You go too far.
[filter; samael]archistrategosAugust 31 2011, 22:52:53 UTC
I'm not saying that you were playing rebel, but you fight fire with fire and there's a corruption to it that's darker than the sins of the fallen. You act like you're entitled to straddle the fence of good and evil and you think that you know more, that you can correct me, because you play both sides.
You know what I hope to achieve, Samael. She needs to experience one lifetime of what it means to be close to God. If you repeat her history twice, then this life of hers would've been lived in vain and she'll be in no better place than she was before. She sabotages herself because you remind her of what she couldn't be before, instead of what she can be now.
[filter; michael]andaclatterAugust 31 2011, 23:21:21 UTC
There are things I know, Michael, that you never will and I'm more than happy to spare you that. The other side isn't fucking pretty. It used to ... sicken me.
Michael, she needs to find her own way to God. She's not a sheep. You can't fucking herd her to the path of righteousness. Her history is hers to repeat or hers to change. It's not your fucking responsibility.
[filter; samael]archistrategosSeptember 1 2011, 03:22:40 UTC
You look at everything as seducer and destroyer. But flesh and blood are both kings and victims of free will, and Eve was its greatest victim. We are humanity's shepherds, most of all to His prodigal children. The Watchers were stationed for that reason, to help and to protect, and with a bigger plan in mind, so were the rest of us. Save for you, all of us were meant to encourage and teach, yes, even to intervene because we must. Her will is still her own, but it's irresponsible to leave her to the wolves. She's His first daughter, one of His very first children. It was my responsibility to watch over Adam and Eve when they left the gates of Eden. What makes you think it's "not my fucking responsibility" now, Samael?
[filter; michael]andaclatterSeptember 1 2011, 06:48:34 UTC
Not everything, Michael. Not everything. (And "save for you"? Must you always draw that fucking distinction between me and the rest of our brothers? Every fucking time.)
And what are we now, if not flesh and blood, too? Or, wait, are we angels? If we're angels, trapped in mortal flesh, then fine. Be shepherds, brothers. Encourage and fucking teach. But it's not one fucking physiological rule for us and another for her. If we're more than we seem, so is she. She remains Sin, Michael, by that logic and defending her is pretty fucking dangerous.
[filter; samael]archistrategosSeptember 1 2011, 17:16:31 UTC
We're angels. Making us flesh and blood, giving us free will, is only an opportunity to understand the mortal condition and to realize why they were the chosen ones. But I don't pretend that I'm anything more than an angel except in body because I - all of us - have seen His great plan, have known the meaning of our place in the world. And we woke up remembering all of this; that's not a dignity, that's our burden. There is only one rule for us. To serve. And because she's a mortal daughter, our duty to Eve is to forgive. Her crimes have been judged in Heaven, and if she's here on earth again then she's been forgiven. If you're telling me that she's too dangerous for me then I have no business with Lucifer and I would not be His archistratege.
[filter; michael]andaclatterSeptember 1 2011, 17:32:30 UTC
I'm afraid I don't buy what you're saying, Michael, I can't. Aren't Azazel and the rest on earth again, too? Are you saying that they have been forgiven?
And I don't mean that she's dangerous to you but would you defend Lucifer? Like fuck you would. You wouldn't defend me, I'm pretty fucking sure of it. But you'll defend the very mortal who introduced Sin into the entire human race.
[filter; samael]archistrategosSeptember 1 2011, 17:52:12 UTC
What I'm trying to tell you, Samael, is that there are two separate rules. One for humans, and one for angels. Forgiveness to our own kind is not a part of our repertoire. Sending us to earth is merely an experience and an opportunity, nothing more. To put ourselves to the same standards as mortals is arrogance. We were not made in His image, we are not the beneficiaries of His sacrifices. We know our places in His command, and that is why we're simply servants in mortal shells. That is why Lucifer will not be defended. That is why, if Raphael falls, he will not be defended. And I try to see your goodness, Samael, but because of your station you're the danger. You're an angel next door to a demon. Eve's dignity was born by her humanity, and because of that Original Sin is no longer relevant. And she's a mortal like any other.
[filter; michael]andaclatterSeptember 1 2011, 20:15:50 UTC
I'm trying to understand. I am. I just don't agree with you. It's one thing for you - you're Michael. Fuck knows you're peerless. You laid the smackdown on Lucifer and I've no doubt you could do it again, mortal shell or not.
It's not as easy for the rest of us. It's just fucking not. Well, I don't know. Maybe it's easy for me. I've always played by a different set of rules, as you well know and maybe that's why I don't fucking get what you're saying and the fucking distinctions you're making. Raphael is so fucking human but he's being held to the highest fucking standards.
[filter; samael]archistrategosSeptember 2 2011, 15:45:27 UTC
I haven't given up on Raphael yet. But he's not innocent of his actions. By now he remembers his position, and even if he doesn't understand it, he knows as well as anyone that praying for guidance from God is his only choice. Yet instead of walking away from sin, I'm told he turns toward it, sometimes thinks of it.
Those aren't the actions of an angel, less an archangel. But I'm patient, Samael. He'll be given time to turn things around. And if he can't there's nothing I can do.
She's not in my control. If anything, she's uncontrollable and if it were up to me, she would've never stepped within ten feet of your radius.
Don't tell me who can and can't be saved. That's not your jurisdiction.
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It's probably just as well that it's not up to you, brother, because that's not your jurisdiction. And please note that I'm not telling you who can and can't be saved. Would I fucking presume? I'm simply stating that everyone can't be saved and angelic intervention can only go so far. Let the children make their fucking mistakes, brother.
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It's less of a priority to you than it is for me. If it wasn't part of your nature to prey on humanity then you'd understand why she, in particular, needs more guidance. No, she's not being coddled, Samael, but there is a reason why she deserves to be protected from the damage you'll cause. I've allowed her to make her own mistakes, but I'd rather she make her mistakes away from you.
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Guidance is one thing, Michael. Even protection is understandable (to a fucking point) but what do you hope to achieve? You planning on moulding this woman until she is acceptable to you? You go too far.
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You know what I hope to achieve, Samael. She needs to experience one lifetime of what it means to be close to God. If you repeat her history twice, then this life of hers would've been lived in vain and she'll be in no better place than she was before. She sabotages herself because you remind her of what she couldn't be before, instead of what she can be now.
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Michael, she needs to find her own way to God. She's not a sheep. You can't fucking herd her to the path of righteousness. Her history is hers to repeat or hers to change. It's not your fucking responsibility.
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And what are we now, if not flesh and blood, too? Or, wait, are we angels? If we're angels, trapped in mortal flesh, then fine. Be shepherds, brothers. Encourage and fucking teach. But it's not one fucking physiological rule for us and another for her. If we're more than we seem, so is she. She remains Sin, Michael, by that logic and defending her is pretty fucking dangerous.
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And I don't mean that she's dangerous to you but would you defend Lucifer? Like fuck you would. You wouldn't defend me, I'm pretty fucking sure of it. But you'll defend the very mortal who introduced Sin into the entire human race.
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It's not as easy for the rest of us. It's just fucking not. Well, I don't know. Maybe it's easy for me. I've always played by a different set of rules, as you well know and maybe that's why I don't fucking get what you're saying and the fucking distinctions you're making. Raphael is so fucking human but he's being held to the highest fucking standards.
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Those aren't the actions of an angel, less an archangel. But I'm patient, Samael. He'll be given time to turn things around. And if he can't there's nothing I can do.
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I can't preach on the actions of an archangel but I do believe Raphael's really fucking trying.
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