I didn't read all this post because spoilers, but I couldn't resist opening the cut and reading a little of your thoughts. Thanks for sharing--I've been wondering how Joss would handle the sequel, and now it sounds like he let his ego override the ensemble idea. Well, I'll be going some time this weekend, so we'll see how it is.
It was entertaining, but it wasn't emotionally engaging to me. I was just like, "What? What?" the whole time.
Oddly, it's made me come around to the idea of splitting Infinity War into two parts, because this was so overstuffed, I can't see how they could possibly deal with the Infinity Gauntlet and Thanos in one movie.
That's a good point.
I did have similar WTF thoughts about Tony, though. I was like, but he blew up his suits! He promised Pepper! Why is he just Iron Manning it up like IM3 never happened?
It honestly feels like Joss decided he was going with his characterization and Cap 2 and IM3 might as well have never happened.
"Sorry the Flash died, I know you like him." And he was like, "Aaauuggghh MOOOMMMM," completely mortified.
aw, that's adorable! I hope that kid one day appreciates his mom trying to be supportive like that! *g*
Yup, I agree with all of this completely. I'm glad I'm not the only one who was disappointed. I think you're exactly right that Ultron seemed to disregard all of IM3 and Cap2, which was disappointing since the first Avengers film seemed to flow naturally from the movies that had come before And you're absolutely right about recycling Tony's story. He's actually one of my favorite characters, but he's been through the bad judgment storyline so many times before, so I was totally bored with him in this film. The sad thing is, I think there was a lot of untapped potential in this movie. I could have gone with the Bruce/Natasha if it had been developed more, or there had been any real conflict between Nat and Ultron when she was captured. I feel like they jammed so much into this movie that none of it was explored in a satisfying way
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Yes, exactly! If we hadn't had to do the Tony storyline YET AGAIN, there would have been more room for Bruce/Natasha, for showing how the Avengers got involved in taking down random HYDRA bases together, because last we saw, Tony was retired, Natasha was in the wind, Steve was searching for Bucky, and Fury had burned eyepatch. But nope, it's all reset to status quo pre-Phase 2, which makes no real sense.
And WTF was up with the CGI in the first battle? I actually thought it was a video game, and it was going to be a big joke about them becoming Xbox characters after the Battle of New York...but no, apparently they thought that looked good.
there would have been more room for Bruce/Natasha, for showing how the Avengers got involved in taking down random HYDRA bases together, because last we saw, Tony was retired, Natasha was in the wind, Steve was searching for Bucky, and Fury had burned eyepatch. But nope, it's all reset to status quo pre-Phase 2, which makes no real sense.
Yes, to this and I think your broader point about some of the characteriation disregarding previous movies has merit. I was very much open to Bruce/Natasha after Avengers, but the development and execution needed to be better. But not to know, even, how they all came back together felt like a jump too far. It's not great to start watching a movie like this thinking 'well, I'll just have to set those questions aside'.
Yeah, I wasn't against the Bruce/Natasha thing, and I even agree that Bruce's desire for children is alluded to in Avengers, but man, this just didn't work for me at all. Like, how are we leaping from, "I like you," "um, me?" to "Let's run away together!"?
and yes on the team being back together again. I get that we're not going to go through it again, but something about how and why would be nice. Like, did Steve call everybody and say, "Let's go after HYDRA!"?
Beginning in medias res is nice, but also maybe actually follow up on the previous movies instead of acting like they never happened would be good?
. I don't get how having nightmare at the dance hall was supposed to be frighteningly revelatory to him.
I'm probably reading too much into this, but I saw the empty dance hall as the revelatory moment - when he imagines going home, as Peggy told him to, what he comes up with is an empty room - no Peggy, no Bucky. The war isn't really over. Also the language they chose for his later articulation of this to Tony was sort of interesting subtextually. I might be giving Whedon too much credit, but maybe not.
Otherwise, I agree with you, mostly. I didn't hate it, but it was...kind of boring. And in places, it made almost no sense to me.
Maybe? I'd like to think there was some depth to it, but to me it didn't seem like anything Steve didn't already know. If Wanda's spell was about showing them their worst fears, I feel like Steve already *knows* he's never going to be able to put the shield down. He might not have known it in 1945, but in 2015?
I also don't know that I believe Steve ever really wanted a white picket fence life, or that he thought he was capable of it after he lost Bucky, and I don't even mean that in a slashy way. And I certainly don't think he'd think Peggy was going to be a housewife after the war while he worked in some Madison Avenue job or something. Steve was built for war and even before he had the body for it, he was always fighting and that doesn't change.
So it didn't work for me. Maybe a second viewing would reveal more to it.
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Oddly, it's made me come around to the idea of splitting Infinity War into two parts, because this was so overstuffed, I can't see how they could possibly deal with the Infinity Gauntlet and Thanos in one movie.
That's a good point.
I did have similar WTF thoughts about Tony, though. I was like, but he blew up his suits! He promised Pepper! Why is he just Iron Manning it up like IM3 never happened?
It honestly feels like Joss decided he was going with his characterization and Cap 2 and IM3 might as well have never happened.
"Sorry the Flash died, I know you like him." And he was like, "Aaauuggghh MOOOMMMM," completely mortified.
aw, that's adorable! I hope that kid one day appreciates his mom trying to be supportive like that! *g*
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And WTF was up with the CGI in the first battle? I actually thought it was a video game, and it was going to be a big joke about them becoming Xbox characters after the Battle of New York...but no, apparently they thought that looked good.
Ha! That would have been so much better!
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Yes, to this and I think your broader point about some of the characteriation disregarding previous movies has merit. I was very much open to Bruce/Natasha after Avengers, but the development and execution needed to be better. But not to know, even, how they all came back together felt like a jump too far. It's not great to start watching a movie like this thinking 'well, I'll just have to set those questions aside'.
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and yes on the team being back together again. I get that we're not going to go through it again, but something about how and why would be nice. Like, did Steve call everybody and say, "Let's go after HYDRA!"?
Beginning in medias res is nice, but also maybe actually follow up on the previous movies instead of acting like they never happened would be good?
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
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I'm probably reading too much into this, but I saw the empty dance hall as the revelatory moment - when he imagines going home, as Peggy told him to, what he comes up with is an empty room - no Peggy, no Bucky. The war isn't really over. Also the language they chose for his later articulation of this to Tony was sort of interesting subtextually. I might be giving Whedon too much credit, but maybe not.
Otherwise, I agree with you, mostly. I didn't hate it, but it was...kind of boring. And in places, it made almost no sense to me.
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I also don't know that I believe Steve ever really wanted a white picket fence life, or that he thought he was capable of it after he lost Bucky, and I don't even mean that in a slashy way. And I certainly don't think he'd think Peggy was going to be a housewife after the war while he worked in some Madison Avenue job or something. Steve was built for war and even before he had the body for it, he was always fighting and that doesn't change.
So it didn't work for me. Maybe a second viewing would reveal more to it.
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