Comments | musesfool: i guess that i miss you, i guess i forgive you

musesfool

i guess that i miss you, i guess i forgive you

Aug 08, 2014 10:43

Okay, here is a thing I find baffling in 1940s era Steve/Bucky fic - the use of condoms. I don't have a real grasp of gay history during the war (or otherwise), but I feel like that is completely anachronistic. Condoms were for use with ladies so 1. men didn't get STDs and 2. no one ended up pregnant. (Needless to say, the armed forces were not ( Read more... )

writing: research

Comments 23

tavella August 8 2014, 16:02:08 UTC

I'd agree. I'm glad that the whole safe sex thing has gotten so ingrained, but it wouldn't happen in the 1940s for two guys.

musesfool August 8 2014, 20:30:10 UTC

Yeah, I'm not someone who thinks stopping to use a condom ruins the mood - in fic or in real life! - but it does jar me when something is set in the 30s or 40s.

kita0610 August 8 2014, 16:24:22 UTC

I have been out of fandom proper for so long that the minutiae of it is fascinating in this weirdly academic way. But I think you are spot on about condoms. Using them anachronistically is author insertion. Er, no pun intended.

musesfool August 8 2014, 20:32:34 UTC

Hee! I like the idea that routine condom usage is being taken to heart by the next generation! But I feel like that was not the case prior to the 80s.

kita0610 August 8 2014, 20:35:12 UTC

I was a teenager in the 80's, hubby is 5 years older. He went to an all boy's Catholic school, and he says even in that environment, EVERYBODY knew to wrap it. AIDS pretty much changed everything.

musesfool August 8 2014, 20:39:00 UTC

Yeah, me, too. I went to Catholic school (84-88), but we totally got the lectures about using condoms if we weren't going to abstain from premarital like good Catholics should.

szarabasjka August 8 2014, 20:23:13 UTC

uhm.. my grandfather fought in WWII and he told us they were given *prophylactics* to prevent disease and pregnancies, and they were given to anyone no matter "what kind of partner they chose". (just don't ask how we ended up talking about that when my prude of a mother was around.)
I assume they were to be used by gay couples too, even if they couldn't go out like the rest.

digitalemur August 8 2014, 20:35:24 UTC

Following on that, I feel like it would make sense for these boys to realize that condoms were a good idea after they were both in the war... but perhaps not before, because they hadn't been exposed to the education campaign yet.

Did your grandfather actually say the part about no matter what kind of partner they chose? That's pretty awesome, not that the whole thing isn't awesome!

szarabasjka August 8 2014, 21:27:39 UTC

LOL my grandfather did use that term, then he said "you know what kind of things I'm talking, right? those guys that looks for husbands." .

Apparently (as I for experience know is nowadays) as long as they fought for the right side and did what was ordered nobody really cared for who they had sex with.

I remember this specific conversation because he told us about many things , guns and bombings, dead friends and other things, including the one time they had to kill a donkey because were left behind enemy lines and were starving, so he chewed boiled donkey meat, while fighting his way back into safety. he said it was like trying to eat rubber.

musesfool August 8 2014, 20:37:52 UTC

Yeah, the armed forces had whole campaigns to get men to use condoms while having sex, and everyone got them. If you haven't, you should google the propaganda posters - they're quite eye-opening! But I haven't seen any sources say that condoms were in widespread use by men who had sex with men in the 30s and 40s. Did your grandfather say those were the instructions they were actually given, or he was just interpolating, knowing that some of the men he served with were likely gay?

Thread 6

katie_m August 8 2014, 21:47:47 UTC

I think Natasha is much more likely to have been sterilized than Bucky - pregnancy would interfere with her work. With Bucky, why bother? While MCU Bucky frankly does not read to me as a guy who's likely to have a lot of sex post-Winter Soldier, they'd likely want to preserve the option of using his sperm. Because they are TERRIBLE.

musesfool August 9 2014, 00:05:41 UTC

I was thinking more that it happened by accident with Bucky (whereas with Natasha, yes, it would be on purpose, not to interfere with her ability work), but you're right - have you read Medvezhonok? It starts with the premise that Department X experimented with reproducing using Bucky's sperm.

katie_m August 15 2014, 01:06:51 UTC

I have! Sadly it's the story that taught me that if I've been eagerly following a story as a serial for a long time, an ending that doesn't work for me is really disappointing. But I like the first 5/6ths of it very much. MCU Bucky is pretty easy to make paternal.

musesfool August 18 2014, 17:44:33 UTC

I know that sucky feeling.

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musesfool August 9 2014, 00:12:08 UTC

Me, too. I remember health class in 1986!

I think today Steve absolutely would use condoms unless he had an agreement with his partner to dispense with them. Unmarked use of condoms in stories set in the late 30s/early 40s still probably won't work for me, though. I think it'd have to be brought up earlier, or mentioned that it was unusual but they were doing it for Steve's (pre-serum) health, for me to not be jarred by it. *hands* Obviously, mileage varies.