SPOILERS for SPN 9.10: "But don't go thinking that's the problem cause it's not." What did Sam mean?

[morganlucas41]

I haven't posted in a LONG time. I've been spending a lot of time over on Tumblr, and I've sort of been enjoying this season quietly.

Here today because I had some meta-y thoughts on Road Trip, particularly the last Sam and Dean scene.

Comments

[felicia_angel]

Great meta of how the two interact! I do agree that a lot of the stuff that happens does kinda reach back to their codependency. I do think that Sam had very legit reasons to be pissed, but I also think that, this time (hopefully), he'll start to realize that it's not just Dean who does it, but also himself and how he enables and can hurt Dean (thinking of 'Faith' and how Dean was ready to die, but Sam wasn't about to let go). Sam has to have that time away to heal, as well as to deal with what happened and how to talk to Dean as equals again. it took them up to Season 5 to become 'equals', and after 6, 7, and 8, Dean is starting to go back into caring for same after all he'd suffered.

[morganlucas41]

Agreed. Sam, of course, has very legitimate reasons to be pissed. But the thing is, he's codependent on Dean, too. In 901, he says he was ready to die. But ultimately, he did choose to continue fighting because Dean (or who he thought was Dean) asked him to. It's a two-way street.

It's interesting because I do think they made huge strides towards becoming equals in S5, and then the rest of the show happened. Over the past few years Sam's had to deal with a lot of traumatic issues, and I do think that's partially why Dean has moved back into the caretaker role. But for either of them to be able to move on, he's going to have to realize that Sam's a grown man capable of making his own decisions. He has to learn to respect Sam's autonomy.

[felicia_angel]

Agreed 100%. I do also think that, because Sam has never really been put in a caretaker role, he doesn't quite get it as much, and thus is often cared for by the others. It's part of what allows him to leave the 'family business' and also part of what gets him stuck. His interactions with John, in Season 1 and the 201, show him to be considered equals or moving towards that, and you can see the dynamic that puts Dean as 'caretaker', or in a role of sacrifice/being sacrificed, a lot of times. By S9, that's still the role Dean has been in, because of what happened in S6 onward - he's been placed as caretaker, not just of Sam when he's ill and the like, but also of Castiel and Kevin. Until Dean is able to get past the definition of himself as either 'poison' or 'caretaker', I don't think he'll really view Sam with autonomy that Sam needs/requires.

[morganlucas41]

Great point. Dean has always seen himself as a caretaker, and that plays a part in why he takes Sam's autonomy away - because he thinks that's what he's supposed to do. Yeah, that really makes sense - It's always been Dean's job to take care of Sam. It all ties back together.

Thank you for pointing that out!

[kassidy62]

I think it might be possible that the problem to Sam is that Kevin died - because of what Dean did, Sam still existed, and because Sam still existed, his body was used to kill Kevin. So in other words another person got hurt because Sam still lived. As you said, when Sam talked to Death, he wanted to know for sure that he could die and no one else would be hurt.

I think, beginning with Dean bringing him back after he died at end of Season 2 and the way it cost Dean to bring him back, and then the times when others possessed Sam and people got hurt by whatever being was in control, and then during the time he existed without a soul, people always got hurt simply because Sam still *existed.*

I think he feels that someone or more than one someone will always pay the price for that. And more than anything, he doesn't want that.

[morganlucas41]

Great point. Sam had basically decided to die once Death was able to tell him that no one else would get hurt, if Sam died. And then, of course, Kevin died, as a direct result of the choice that Dean made for Sam. Of course Sam's upset about that.

However...I don't really think it's healthy for Sam to think like that. That, his continued existence is a bad thing because people might get hurt. That sort of thinking is essentially where Dean's head space is right now. And I don't think that's a good thing, either. So while I understand why Dean's decision is all the more hurtful to Sam because Kevin died, I also think that Sam needs to understand that he doesn't have to die so people will stop getting hurt. Both Dean and Sam need to quit feeling responsible for things that are outside of their control.

[caranfindel]

Personally, I think the problem for Sam is that Dean ignores what Sam wants and makes decisions on his behalf, and then lies to him about it. He is too hurt and angry at the end of 9.10 to care about WHY Dean does that.

[morganlucas41]

Well, yeah, but I thought that fact was pretty well established in their conversation. Sam's upset because Dean took his choice away, and of course lied about it too. When Sam says "that's not the problem," I think there's a deeper meaning to it. You're probably right that Sam was too hurt/upset in that moment to really care why Dean did what he did, and that's probably why Sam lets him go. But I do think Sam realizes there's more to it than that.

[borgmama1of5]

The real problem - is that Dean thinks so little of himself outside of Sam. He thinks he's not worth anything, and that's why he'll take extreme measures - like taking Sam's own autonomy away - in order to keep Sam in his life. Not only is he infantilizing Sam, he's doing so because he believes that he himself is not worth anything outside of Sam.

Thank you for expressing so clearly the thought that I have been trying to verbalize!

I also think there is an element that if Dean blames himself so hard he doesn't have to think about what he did to Sam...the best analogy I can come up with is the person who is deliberately rude who, when called out, says 'you know I'm like that so I don't have to apologize.'

And if show ever does allow Dean to have some self-worth it will totally revive my flaggin interest in it. I am very tired of waiting for some character growth!

[morganlucas41]

True. The comment below points out that Dean's behavior, by calling himself poison and accepting all the blame, sort of cuts off Sam's emotional response - what else can he say to someone who already hates himself? But that doesn't allow Sam to feel what he needs to feel.

And I know what you mean. I would really, really like some character growth for Dean too - I thought we were getting some at the beginning of S8, when he re-found his love for hunting. But then that all went down the drain somewhere in the middle of the season. He NEEDS to find some self-worth. It's been nine years!

[cuddyclothes]

As I remarked in my review, Dean victimizes Sam and then paints himself as the ultimate victim. Which then leaves Sam with nowhere to go with his own emotions. I mean, what do you say after the person who fucked you over says "I'm a terrible person and what I did and it's all about meee." "Uh, yeah, okay." That tends to be Sam's knee-jerk response. Here, he was freaked out, in pain, had discovered that his head had been messed with again and then he can't express himself because of Dean's epic tantrum. Not exactly tantrum, but a definite pre-emptive blocking of whatever Sam actually had to say. "Okay, let me have it" is a confrontational statement, immediately putting the other person on the defense.

ETA: I vastly prefer Sam's actual reaction at the end of 910, as opposed to Gadreel!Sam's overblown one at the end of 909. Him punching Dean seemed OOC to me, and I think the way Sam reacted here made a lot more sense.But it was Gadreel!Sam punching Dean, and guessing how Sam would react. Also, he needed Dean out of commission

[morganlucas41]

Yeah, I get what you're saying. But I think that's also part of the problem. Dean's martyr complex is SO big that he's not even letting Sam work out his own emotional issues. That, to me, is the main problem.

But it was Gadreel!Sam punching Dean, and guessing how Sam would react. Also, he needed Dean out of commission while Gadreel killed Kevin.

Right...that was my point, that it was Gadreel guessing how Sam would react. My point was that it's usually Dean who reacts with physical violence when he's pissed/feeling betrayed by Sam, not the other way around. So, the reaction we get from Sam - once he's no longer possessed - felt much truer to how I thought Sam would react, which makes sense.

[cuddyclothes]

It makes perfect sense. Sorry I didn't understand!

[morganlucas41]

No problem!