I'm traveling (writing this from the airport, actually) and can't really take the time to write the detailed comment this deserves! Aargh. But I wanted to drop a quick comment that I found this a really interesting, thought-provoking read, and it ties into a lot of stuff that I've been thinking about lately regarding narrative equality and the superficial way it's often handled in both fandom and pro fic. Basically I agree with most of what you're saying here (although I also think that "motivational" deaths can very easily be used as sloppy shorthand for character development, and at the very least, having the "fridging" concept out there gives us some vocabulary for talking about it, and about the trend of women dying to motivate men in particular).
The question I see being brought up frequently is, why not tell the rape victim's/brain damaged person's/cancer patient's story? Why use it to motivate someone else? Well, my thinking is, those are different stories. Both types of stories can and should be told. Yes, the story of the
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I think we definitely need both kinds of stories. There is a general tendency for media to depict the privileged position at the expense of the other side of it [...] but the answer isn't necessarily less of the one kind of story, but more of the other kind.
YES! That was EXACTLY what I was trying to say. You said it even better! :-D
. . . at the very least, having the "fridging" concept out there gives us some vocabulary for talking about it, and about the trend of women dying to motivate men in particular).
Yes, I agree, I actually really like the terminology! Which is why it annoys me when I feel like it starts to get diluted.
... well, and also, I think that half the time the narrative problems with all of these tropes, from refrigerated women to disabled/PoC/queer characters who only exist to teach a Special Lesson, are due to the author not having adequate sympathy with the character on the less-privileged end of the scale. In other words, the character is a plot device rather than a character. I don't know if you've read
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"... wait, the problem isn't killing characters, the problem is treating characters as disposable rather than proper people in their own right, who sometimes die."
Yes, yes yes yes!!!!
I love character death. Love it. I revel in the sadness and the pain as I think everyone who has spent five minutes on my flist knows. LOL But I love the meaningful character death, not the treatment of characters as disposable. There's such a huge difference, and that's why most of the character death on SPN, say, ceased to be effective for me years ago until you get to Ellen's death or Bobby's--those characters were well developed and I cared about them and their deaths were meaningful to the larger narrative and to me personally.
I mean. Ahem. That makes me sound really, uh, like I should be on some watchlist or something. *g* (My sister gave me the nickname "heartless murderer" because in the first fantasy trilogy I wrote (which will probably forever remain unpublished, too many problems with it), out of 12 main characters, half died during the main narrative, and all but 3 were dead or dying before the end of the epilogue. And it wasn't even a tragedy!)
But, like you, I want meaningful character death. I hate it when (1) characters are just background and are killed to show how Very High the stakes are for the main characters, who all remain safe, or, even worse, (2) a beloved character is killed and it feels like it's only for the sake of DRAMA because the writers were going, "Hey, it's about time to kill someone to keep the fans on their toes; who cares if there's no good story reason for it!" (which incidentally seems to happen to women and characters of color way, way too much, and is the kind of fridging I ABSOLUTELY
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This is interesting. I'll have to think more about a response. I do think that in the case of rape, though, there is an inherent problem using it for a "fridging" story. I think that rape is something that if you are going to use it to tell your story, in order to do it justice, you have to at least spend a good amount of the time focusing on the victim. I do have a problem with having a character raped only to serve the story of another character because I don't think you can properly deal with the storyline that way.
I agree that rape has to be treated extremely sensitively, and a writer should think long and HARD about whether it needs to be there in general and ESPECIALLY if it's being used to motivate a man close to the woman being raped. But . . . I have to admit that I can think of examples where I thought it did work:
(spoilers ahead for Rob Roy and Criminal Minds)
In the film Rob Roy, Cunningham, the villain, rapes MacGregor's wife Mary specifically to provoke him. Mary, who is an awesome character in her own right, knows this, and decides to foil him by not telling her husband about the rape. It almost works, despite the fact that she becomes pregnant from it. I thought Mary's character was her own woman throughout the movie, and she plays an integral role in the plot. However, she's not the protagonist, and from a meta perspective, Cunningham assaulting her was in the story because of how it would impact MacGregor.
I can also think of an episode of Criminal Minds in which the villain of the week originally snaps because his fiancee
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I have to disclaim that I am speaking as a survivor and not a literary critic/sociologist/etc, so I am likely biased. However, when they are done well, I actually really like stories about rape recovery that don't focus on the survivor, for the same reasons that sholio mentioned above. I find it really interesting to read stories from the perspective of a rape survivor's loved ones, because it both gives me insight into what my loved ones have gone through, and it gives me a new perspective on my own experiences/allows me to view the crime from a perspective other than that of the survivor
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It makes such complete sense that I've been sitting here since you posted it having Thoughts that are primarily about how much sense it makes. Thank you again.
I tried to come up with some examples of women in media be-set by man pain and all I could think of is Starbuck from the new BSG and possibly Aeryn Sun from Farscape. WE NEED WOMANPAIN TO ABOUND! LOL
I was thinking about it and Buffy would probably qualify; she definitely does the whole, "the world is on my shoulders I'm the only one responsible for EVERYTHING" a fair bit. And good point about Starbuck and Aeryn, but on the other hand, they're part of ensemble casts and their "manpain" is all mixed up in how it impacts Adama and Apollo and John, so even if they are angsty in their own storylines, the narrative doesn't veer towards being All About Them the same way it would if they were the lead characters (like it does with The Doctor or with Sam and Dean from SPN or with countless other male examples).
And like you said, in a sense it doesn't even matter if we can come up with a handful of female examples, because that doesn't negate the fact that there just aren't enough!
(And now I want a series that's The Adventures of Starbuck in an alternate timeline where the cylons didn't attack and she stayed a hotshot pilot instead of dying and turning into some strange spiritual creature
Yeah, I wish Starbuck hadn't turned into a strange spiritual creature either. That was probably my only real complaint about the whole series. Buffy's a good example, too!
Heya, I posted a response to this on my journal. I got a bit ranty and I didn't want to be in your face about it, so that seemed best. Feel free to ignore. :-)
I'm very sick right now and currently have zero reading comprehension skill, but I will definitely come back and read this later. :) And no worries at all, discussion is always good! I'll look forward to reading it.
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The question I see being brought up frequently is, why not tell the rape victim's/brain damaged person's/cancer patient's story? Why use it to motivate someone else? Well, my thinking is, those are different stories. Both types of stories can and should be told. Yes, the story of the ( ... )
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YES! That was EXACTLY what I was trying to say. You said it even better! :-D
. . . at the very least, having the "fridging" concept out there gives us some vocabulary for talking about it, and about the trend of women dying to motivate men in particular).
Yes, I agree, I actually really like the terminology! Which is why it annoys me when I feel like it starts to get diluted.
... well, and also, I think that half the time the narrative problems with all of these tropes, from refrigerated women to disabled/PoC/queer characters who only exist to teach a Special Lesson, are due to the author not having adequate sympathy with the character on the less-privileged end of the scale. In other words, the character is a plot device rather than a character. I don't know if you've read ( ... )
Reply
Yes, yes yes yes!!!!
I love character death. Love it. I revel in the sadness and the pain as I think everyone who has spent five minutes on my flist knows. LOL But I love the meaningful character death, not the treatment of characters as disposable. There's such a huge difference, and that's why most of the character death on SPN, say, ceased to be effective for me years ago until you get to Ellen's death or Bobby's--those characters were well developed and I cared about them and their deaths were meaningful to the larger narrative and to me personally.
Reply
I mean. Ahem. That makes me sound really, uh, like I should be on some watchlist or something. *g* (My sister gave me the nickname "heartless murderer" because in the first fantasy trilogy I wrote (which will probably forever remain unpublished, too many problems with it), out of 12 main characters, half died during the main narrative, and all but 3 were dead or dying before the end of the epilogue. And it wasn't even a tragedy!)
But, like you, I want meaningful character death. I hate it when (1) characters are just background and are killed to show how Very High the stakes are for the main characters, who all remain safe, or, even worse, (2) a beloved character is killed and it feels like it's only for the sake of DRAMA because the writers were going, "Hey, it's about time to kill someone to keep the fans on their toes; who cares if there's no good story reason for it!" (which incidentally seems to happen to women and characters of color way, way too much, and is the kind of fridging I ABSOLUTELY ( ... )
Reply
Reply
(spoilers ahead for Rob Roy and Criminal Minds)
In the film Rob Roy, Cunningham, the villain, rapes MacGregor's wife Mary specifically to provoke him. Mary, who is an awesome character in her own right, knows this, and decides to foil him by not telling her husband about the rape. It almost works, despite the fact that she becomes pregnant from it. I thought Mary's character was her own woman throughout the movie, and she plays an integral role in the plot. However, she's not the protagonist, and from a meta perspective, Cunningham assaulting her was in the story because of how it would impact MacGregor.
I can also think of an episode of Criminal Minds in which the villain of the week originally snaps because his fiancee ( ... )
Reply
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I hope all of that makes sense.
It makes such complete sense that I've been sitting here since you posted it having Thoughts that are primarily about how much sense it makes. Thank you again.
Reply
I tried to come up with some examples of women in media be-set by man pain and all I could think of is Starbuck from the new BSG and possibly Aeryn Sun from Farscape. WE NEED WOMANPAIN TO ABOUND! LOL
Reply
Totally agreed!
I was thinking about it and Buffy would probably qualify; she definitely does the whole, "the world is on my shoulders I'm the only one responsible for EVERYTHING" a fair bit. And good point about Starbuck and Aeryn, but on the other hand, they're part of ensemble casts and their "manpain" is all mixed up in how it impacts Adama and Apollo and John, so even if they are angsty in their own storylines, the narrative doesn't veer towards being All About Them the same way it would if they were the lead characters (like it does with The Doctor or with Sam and Dean from SPN or with countless other male examples).
And like you said, in a sense it doesn't even matter if we can come up with a handful of female examples, because that doesn't negate the fact that there just aren't enough!
(And now I want a series that's The Adventures of Starbuck in an alternate timeline where the cylons didn't attack and she stayed a hotshot pilot instead of dying and turning into some strange spiritual creature
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