I actually posted this on lordoftherings originally, back in Sept. '02, but forgot to archive it here as well. However, this time I've expanded it to include movie canon
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Sociolinguisticsagent_tweedFebruary 7 2004, 23:15:34 UTC
Very Nice! I like the analysis and it is great food for thought. I am adding this post to my memories for future reference. It adds another dimension to my understanding of the story.
Re: Sociolinguisticsagent_tweedFebruary 8 2004, 17:51:45 UTC
Good Lord! too geeky for me!?!?! I think not. The minutae of the literature tends provide me with my sparks for writing the fic that I do. Combine that with my conspiracy-theorist personality and it gets even geekier. I know most people choked up with the "My brother, my captain, my king" line in FOTR the film. I just choked. It was NOT in the books and if it were, the warped conspiracy-theorist section of the brain thinks the actual dialogue was:
Boromir: "I would have followed you...wait! My brother gave me that knife, he is one of my captains. If you were my king you would never....(stab)....arrrrrgh."
And do not ask me about The Desecration of Denethor(tm) or the esoteric occultish minutae conferred in the symbolism of belts.
Re: SociolinguisticsmollyringwraithFebruary 8 2004, 20:19:35 UTC
Heheh. I think when it comes to Hollywood desecration of books, we can go with the old adage: "There is no need to attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence." :)
Linguistics, yay!!chapattiFebruary 7 2004, 23:38:16 UTC
Fascinating! And interestingly enough (unless I missed something), no Elves... now of course, they are, as a group, less present than the Hobbits or the Men in the books, but still... do you see the hint of a superiority complex there? ("us, apologize? we're always right, aren't we?" ;)) It might be interesting to check the Silmarillion for the same thing, although given the style and relative lack of dialogs, the results would be less relevant... I'll pack my books and leave the class, now. ;)
Re: Linguistics, yay!!chapattiFebruary 8 2004, 00:53:03 UTC
Follow-up to my own post: I checked one passage in the book where I thought for sure an Elf had to apologize: the part where Bilbo reads his song about Earendil, and the Elf Lindir can't tell the difference between verses written by a Hobbit and by a Man (FOTR, chapter Many Meetings)... well, no such thing as an apology! Lindir basically shrugs the whole thing off ("Mortals have not been our study. We have other business.")
Re: Linguistics, yay!!chapattiFebruary 8 2004, 14:53:26 UTC
Follow-up to the follow-up...
I found *one* occurrence of an Elf apologizing in the book: when Haldir lets the Fellowship in after having stopped them (and blindfolded Gimli in the process) : "He removed the bandage first from Gimli's eyes. 'Your pardon!' he said, bowing low. 'Look on us now with friendly eyes! (...)" So, we have one truthful, Elvish apology in the book. One. ;)
In the Silmarillion, there are apparently (I just did a quick check) no "sorry" and no "apolog*" of any sort. There is one occurrence of an Elf begging for "forgiveness" (Maedhros, at that!), and quite a number of seeking "pardon", an interesting number of them coming from Melkor himself. But again, there is very little direct speech, so it's not as conclusive as in LOTR.
Re: Linguistics, yay!!mollyringwraithFebruary 8 2004, 17:18:05 UTC
"us, apologize? we're always right, aren't we?"
Heheh - that was my basic conclusion for the Elves too. :) But, dang! "Pardon me"! I forgot to search on that. OK, that will have to be the next post, since the text search is turning up some other instances of it. (I won't count Sam's many utterances of "Begging your pardon," though.)
Think I turned it up on Limewire. (One of those file-sharing applications that the record industry hates, y'know.) It's relatively huge, of course: about 3.7 MB. Contains the appendices, even. Someone obviously had too much time on their hands...
I suppose Men and Elves (and Dwarves) have too much pride to offer apologies, for the most part. Hobbits seem more down-to-earth, and thus are more likely to apologize, I think. ^_^
Indeed. Though now it's been pointed out that I forgot to search on 'Pardon me', and if you do that, then there are a couple more from Men and Wizards and even once from Elves. :)
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Boromir: "I would have followed you...wait! My brother gave me that knife, he is one of my captains. If you were my king you would never....(stab)....arrrrrgh."
And do not ask me about The Desecration of Denethor(tm) or the esoteric occultish minutae conferred in the symbolism of belts.
The Illuminati were behind it all.
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I think when it comes to Hollywood desecration of books, we can go with the old adage: "There is no need to attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence." :)
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And interestingly enough (unless I missed something), no Elves... now of course, they are, as a group, less present than the Hobbits or the Men in the books, but still... do you see the hint of a superiority complex there? ("us, apologize? we're always right, aren't we?" ;))
It might be interesting to check the Silmarillion for the same thing, although given the style and relative lack of dialogs, the results would be less relevant...
I'll pack my books and leave the class, now. ;)
Reply
I checked one passage in the book where I thought for sure an Elf had to apologize: the part where Bilbo reads his song about Earendil, and the Elf Lindir can't tell the difference between verses written by a Hobbit and by a Man (FOTR, chapter Many Meetings)... well, no such thing as an apology! Lindir basically shrugs the whole thing off ("Mortals have not been our study. We have other business.")
Those Elves... you gotta love 'em ;)
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I found *one* occurrence of an Elf apologizing in the book: when Haldir lets the Fellowship in after having stopped them (and blindfolded Gimli in the process) : "He removed the bandage first from Gimli's eyes. 'Your pardon!' he said, bowing low. 'Look on us now with friendly eyes! (...)"
So, we have one truthful, Elvish apology in the book. One. ;)
In the Silmarillion, there are apparently (I just did a quick check) no "sorry" and no "apolog*" of any sort. There is one occurrence of an Elf begging for "forgiveness" (Maedhros, at that!), and quite a number of seeking "pardon", an interesting number of them coming from Melkor himself. But again, there is very little direct speech, so it's not as conclusive as in LOTR.
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Heheh - that was my basic conclusion for the Elves too. :) But, dang! "Pardon me"! I forgot to search on that. OK, that will have to be the next post, since the text search is turning up some other instances of it. (I won't count Sam's many utterances of "Begging your pardon," though.)
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We wants it, Precious.
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Maea
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I suppose Men and Elves (and Dwarves) have too much pride to offer apologies, for the most part. Hobbits seem more down-to-earth, and thus are more likely to apologize, I think. ^_^
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