On Fathers

[mark_asphodel]

As I said earlier, suggesting that Vigarde abused Lyon as a means of explaining Lyon’s actions doesn’t sit well with me for a number of reasons. After reading a recently posted FE8 'fic, I have a little more clarity on why I feel this way, beyond the reason I already gave

Comments

[amielleon]

While I disagree with Vigarde as a sexual abuser or an abuser of any appalling extent, I agree emphatically with this bit: just because Vigarde’s generals are loyal to him and distressed by the “change” in him doesn’t mean he was necessarily a model of kingship and parenthood. His generals are not privy to what goes on in the details of his personal life, and almost certainly not his private attitude toward his son. And ultimately, I think it was that that influenced Lyon: a lack of affection, a lack of approval. Things that Wider Fandom might consider to be quite undramatic, but would have a strong effect on a boy raised impersonally by a flock of servants*. I think it ties in quite well with his insecurity on all fronts

[mark_asphodel]

And ultimately, I think it was that that influenced Lyon: a lack of affection, a lack of approval.

I agree that it was something along those lines. Whatever the home life was, it wasn't good for Lyon-- though someone like Eirika or Ephraim or Tana might have been fine in that same household.

I also do not accept it as an excuse for Lyon's actions. There seems to have been a degree of... something off... in the Renais household as well (where's mom? why does Ephraim act the way he does?). To say nothing of Jehanna...

I think the coldhearted factor of Lyon's actions are tempered somewhat by his age -- well, at least, in my thinking wherein he is roughly seventeen.

Mm, that is a good argument for skewing him younger. The coldhearted hyper-rationality of the adolescent.

I suppose the classic wetnurse-as-mother was not a common practice as it was apparently in Pherae.

Apparently not. It does make one wonder.

[amielleon]

An excuse, no, but an influence.

I hesitate to speculate how another character would've done. We know these characters as they are because they have lived the lives they did. There was something off in Renais, and Ephraim shows his self-contained reality issues. There was something off in Jehenna, and Joshua ran away for real. Their reactions are particular to all the circumstances that brought them there, and to write an infant Ephraim who was swapped at birth with Lyon is to write something drastically different from Ephraim as we know him.

[writerawakened]

It's definitely true that one's parents don't completely decide how one turns out (the nature vs nurture debate is an old one, and I have to believe that both play a part in how a person acts). Given that what we hear of Vigarde is overwhelming positive (e.g. from Cormag, Selena, a few NPCs) I have to give him a pass on the "abusive dad!" front, although I can't particularly see him being a touchy-feely emotional support sort of father, which Lyon might have benefited from

[mark_asphodel]

There's a reason hubris is the "unforgivable" classical sin, and the worst of the mortal sins.

[writerawakened]

True. :)

[shimizu_hitomi]

maybe he was more similar to Camus than we thought…

I've always suspected this was the case, as I had the impression that Camus actually liked or respected Cornelius in the whole "worthy opponent" sense. I'm no longer sure if this is fanon or headcanon, something from the games, something from the notes, or what.

I dislike the abusive!Vigarde theories as well, for the reasons you've stated. I guess I can buy him being a great ruler but a bad father... but I mean, there are shades of gray between "most awesome dad ever" and cartoonishly abusive. And given the fact that as emperor, Vigarde probably didn't have much time to play an active role in raising his kid anyway... eh. ehhh.

[mark_asphodel]

I'm no longer sure if this is fanon or headcanon, something from the games, something from the notes, or what.

Heheh. I thought I remembered gleaning that from the FE3 Book 1 Prologue, but the current fan-translation on SF doesn't read that way.

but I mean, there are shades of gray between "most awesome dad ever" and cartoonishly abusive.

Indeed.

[kyusil]

Yeah, I'd be inclined to say that most of fandom tends to see Lyon as the victim there because... well, he's younger and prettier than his father. And sometimes that's all there is to these things, unfortunately.

I'm curious about your last paragraph: are you saying fathers in canon are likely bad fathers or bad leaders? Or that failure in one field causes failure in the other? Because I think crimsonmorgan was right in saying that it's largely a matter of where their time and energy is spent. But a character whose political dealings are... less-than-moral wouldn't necessarily have that carry over to his parenting. For example, I don't doubt at all that Hector had his share of shady maneuvers as marquess, but Lilina's naivety about everything would suggest that he didn't bring any politics into his home life. Which isn't necessarily a sign of good parenting either-- she may claim to be a "warrior's daughter," but she's woefully unprepared for the events of the war and rebellion.

[crimsonmorgan]

he's (younger and) prettier than his father.

I'd argue that :P

[mark_asphodel]

Or that failure in one field causes failure in the other?

Nope. It's more a reaction to the concept (and I think of it as a peculiarly American one, though it probably isn't) that the Good Guys are pure in all aspects, that the ideal leader is a man of God, straightforward in his business deals, honest in his political deals, faithful to his wife, loving to his children, and that all of these boxes MUST be checked off for success. And the playable heroes of Fire Emblem do rather adhere to this stereotype-- but the presentation of their parents and peers often reads otherwise.

Which isn't necessarily a sign of good parenting either-- she may claim to be a "warrior's daughter," but she's woefully unprepared for the events of the war and rebellion.

I tend to think of Hector as a failure, myself. I don't think he was great shakes as a marquess and he didn't prepare his daughter for the downside of leadership.

[amielleon]

"that the ideal leader is a man of God"

I think the Japanese have this stronger than us, what with Divine Right. It permeates the games, with the dynamic exception of Tellius.