Song of Ice and Fire reread: Game of Thrones.

[mariness]

Note: To be all mysterious for a moment, some of you have asked me to comment publicly on a couple of things that happened over the weekend. I am....mulling over my public response to both things, and let's just leave it there for a moment, ok? Generally speaking, and

Comments

[anaisis]

Unfortunately, I'm not as ready as you are for Dance of Dragons. But, I also am noticing things in the re-read. I think it is very obvious that Lyanna died in childbirth. Even if she isn't Jon's mother (and on the re-read I think that is obvious as well) it is clear she died in childbirth. I kept calling myself "stupid, stupid" for missing that in the first read. Also, that Rheagar is the father. Robert mentions more then once how Lyanna was raped several times by Rheagar (although I believe they loved each other). Something else I missed was how quickly Martin has Sandor as a sympathetic character. On the first read it took me a while because of the whole running down Ayra's friend(whose name escapes me) that I only saw him as evil until about the 3rd book. This time I see him as a much more complex character in the first book. Still not sure if I like him, but I don't dislike him. Also, I am paying attention to Ser Jorah's story of his second marriage. I think this will be important (I know 2nd book). I totally agree on

[mariness]

I am just going to note again that you were WARNED well in advance that this book was coming and I regard your failure to keep up as a betrayal :)

Yeah, Sandor, in something I really, really wish HBO hadn't changed, starts coming off as more sympathetic once he starts interacting with Sansa. (HBO has Littlefinger, not Sandor, telling this story.)

I don't think the Rhaegar stuff is as obvious here, mostly because the positive statements about Rhaegar -- from Jorah, Barristan, Jaime, Cersei and the small folk don't really start appearing until the later books. There's some hints in book two; in book three we get more hints from Jojen and Meera, and hear more from Barristan and Jorah; in book four we start hearing a lot more from Jaime and Cersei. But aside from a couple of side thoughts from Ned, the only real defenders of Rhaegar in the first book are Dany and Viserys, who didn't really know him, and aren't exactly reliable witnesses.

[anaisis]

I think book one and two are blending in my brain right now.

[kellinator]

The Starks are so very Lawful Stupid. I haven't even started reading the books yet, but had already reached a very similar conclusion on Catelyn.

[mariness]

And honestly with Catelyn I'm not entirely sure about the Lawful part. The final and major spark of the war is her seizure of Tyrion. She's the wife of the King's Hand and the daughter of Lord Hoster Tully, not the King, not the Hand, and not Lord Tully or anyone else authorized to arrest prisoners on the road. She might -- might -- have the legal right to arrest Tyrion in Winterfell, but certainly not in an inn away from Winterfell. And although Ned later lies on her behalf, he gave her no such authorization. And then, she fails to take Tyrion either to Riverrun - the relevant local authority -- or to King's Landing. I get that she's worried about getting captured herself, but still.

And it starts a war. I think that between Littlefinger, the Lannisters, the Martells and the Greyjoys -- not to mention Viserys and Dany -- a war would have started anyway, but, still. AUUUGH.

[kellinator]

Yes, you're absolutely right on that. How I cursed Catelyn's stupidity in seizing Tyrion, and then she just compounded it with everything she did after that. It's like a special blend of self-serving and stupid. Her actions screw Ned and he's so bloody honorable he covers for her and it's a mess and it makes me mad!

[mariness]

I give her some credit for genuinely putting herself at risk by trying to broker a peace with Renly. Some. But even that seems like the sort of mission that might have gone better had she sent the Blackfish or even Edmure. Sometimes delegating is a Good Thing.

[silviamg]

I hated Catelyn the first time around! It seemed this whole war was caused by the incompetence of Catelyn and her husband, who never bothered to instruct their kids on some important points ... like you don't get to marry a random chick! Hell, Catelyn didn't and Eddard didn't (he was in love with someone else and she was going to marry his brother), so why didn't they drill this into their son? That and other questions abound (like Arya's neglect. Catelyn doesn't seem to give an F about that kid).

Daenerys always seemed like she lacked structure and consistency. Plus the whole white-haired super-sexy super-powered teenager got old reaaaal quick.

I never liked Sansa because she was quite the idiot, but she'll probably end on top. Like you said, she's been taught by some of the most devious people in Westeros and now she has Petyr (who suffers from a bad case of pedophilia and displacement, but is still smart) to train her in the more complex aspects of back-stabbing.

[mariness]

I like Dany, but, well, I like dragons. If she didn't have the dragons I suspect I would not like her at all.

Catelyn calls Arya a difficult child. I can see that Arya would be, which is exactly why sending Arya down to a southern court, even if Catelyn thinks Arya needs some refinement, is a very bad idea. Wait until she knows how to act in a court, which right now, she really, really doesn't.

Sansa, though - I think most of her illusions and outright inability to see the obvious comes more from youth. Even in the first book, she has a scene where she's able to see that Joffrey is asking for trouble when he starts listing the names of people required to come to court to declare their support. Some of those names are just too big. In later books she does - slowly - start seeing reality, and quite a few of her insights are spot on.

[silviamg]

One of these days Sansa is going to end up queen of Westeros. Mark my words.

[mariness]

I could see her as Queen of the North.

I'm kinda figuring at the end of the series the Seven Kingdoms will be split again. This joint rulership doesn't seem to be working too well for anyone.