The Bitchification of Buffy: Implications for Kara Thrace?

[marenfic]

Some fairly unorganized thoughts I've been having today about Kara and Buffy.

Contains spoilers for BSG S3 Promos and S3 Speculation.

Comments

[exposed1]

You shall hate me and perhaps de-flist me... please don't. I'm not such a fan of Starbuck. I've seen the first season of BSG and parts of S2 and I dunno I just don't see it. I don't really 'feel' for her as a character and perhaps that's due to my strong OH GODS don't put her with Lee thing I have going. So Goddess of Kara Maren what am I missing?

[marenfic]

First, I would never defriend over character preferences unless I guess you posted nothing but Starbuck vitriol, ever. I don't think everyone has to like the same characters I do and vice versa. I know inlovewithnight isn't a huge Kara fan and abhors the idea of Lee/Kara, and viciouswishes loves Ellen Tigh, who is a character I wouldn't miss if she suddenly disappeared

[exposed1]

I don't at all agree with character bashing. I'm in the mind frame of if you don't like them then don't like them you can express your opinions in a way that isn't bashing but in an intellictual manner.

I can't really say what it is about Kara that I don't adore. I think some of it could be due to all the hype my brother put on the show. I thought it was like the second coming worthy and Kara just didn't tug at my heart strings as much as I was told she would. Why not her with Lee? I think it's the whole being with his brother and kinda being a bitch to him at times. I like that she challenges authority because it shows she is her own person but I find her too in your face. Maybe I just need to sit down again and watch the seasons straight through... What's annoying is I can't say THIS is why... I just don't 'feel' for her? lol confusing eh? lol

[marenfic]

Maybe she just doesn't hit your buttons-- nothing wrong with that. I know that southernbangel doesn't love her as much as I do (she prefers Leemo and Roslin as individual characters, although she ships Kara/Lee). It could be she just couldn't live up to all the hype.

Part of what I love about Kara and Lee is that they are so bitchy to each other. It's the power of their UST. And the brother part makes it forbidden and wrong which is another kink of mine. It's funny how the same variables can create completely different reactions :)

[kita0610]

I like to believe that BSG is a smaller, saner fandom than BtVS was. I don't know if this is true of some of the obsessive shipper fans, nor am I sure this isn't wishful thinking on my part. But I cling to the belief that Starbuck will remain beloved in a way that Buffy wasn't able to be. Because if I have to go through that shit again, someone's gonna lose an eye.

[marenfic]

Definitely smaller, from what I can tell. . . and I think most of the people I've run across are pretty sane although I think once you dig a little deeper into shipper fandom you hit the writhing, grotesque underbelly of craziness.

I will cling with you, and wear protective eyewear should we ever go through a Buffy retread.

[kita0610]

Hahahaha. No no, Buffy fans get to keep their eyes.

[dlgood]

Characters who are notably "edgy" have that as a benefit. If that character gets 'bitchy' it can be more acceptable. (Not to confuse with Faith or Lilah - who are antagonists, and whom bitchiness is seen as appeal)

The sort of fan hatred you see, comes from people who on the one hand like the snarky bitches, but at core want to see Buffy as 'nice' and usually wanting to see Buffy liking their avatar or POV character (who is someone other than Buffy).

Which may be less an issue the case in this show, since Kara isn't a lead character. Lead characters are almost always the prime ownership sqaubble territory.

[marenfic]

It likely is mediated by POV character. I doubt too many people who have Kara as a POV character will check out if she is more bitchy, but rather others whose POV character is at the brunt of it.

[ba4ever]

I've never watched BSG before, so I can't really comment on Kara as a character, but can comment on the "type" of character she is, given teh picture you painted.

I agree with you about Buffy. I really detest S6 - not as much as S7 of course - but mostly because Spike is annoying. Maybe I'm just not this huge enough JM fangurl to "get it" or maybe I don't find him attractive, which is probably a huge factor *G*. But I digress. I never stopped hating Buffy, I can say I hated the season, I can say that I hate Marti for doing this to Buffy. But I *understand*, believe me, that this was something that Buffy HAD to go through, she was severely traumatized and she can't be the perfect hero all the time. Which is one of the main reasons why she's such a loveable character. I've always defended her actions, even though I might have hated what the writers did. I think the storylines were pretty bad, the ideas were pretty good, the season started off in a not so terrible way. But it quickly resorted to let's kick Buffy harder! Let's demean

[marenfic]

Yeah, I hear you. I get the impression, with Buffy, that people were fine with seeing her being depressed for an ep or two but then wanted her to "learn her lessons" and "be back to her old self". So really, they weren't interested in an honest portrayal of depression and emotion. I have a feeling some of these people are also those who would tell a loved one to "snap out of it" because the depression is annoying.

I didn't watch S6 when it was on-- I watched it on DVD so I saw it over a matter of days (like a really long movie) rather than over a year. This probably affected my tolerance and enjoyment as well.

[ba4ever]

I think another problem is that we love Buffy so much, that we just...want her to be ok again, and when she wasn't it was really difficult to watch.

I can definitely see that watching it on dvd (and also not discussing each and every episode after it aired) could affect the viewing for sure. Watching it as it aired, made it seem so *long* and seemingly dragged on forever that I just wanted the season to be over. Mostly Buffy wasn't my problem in that season, it was pretty much the OTHER characters and the way they dealt - or didn't - with her pain and suffering.

[rahirah]

Well...I think a lot of the problem the BtVS situation was a lot more complicated than just fandom turning against Buffy when she fell off her pedestal.

Joss had just handed over the show to a new producer, there was infighting among the writers as to which way to go with the storyline, there were deep divisions in fandom resulting several factions wanting completely incompatible things from the show...in short, while the concept for S6 was daring, the execution stumbled. And the show happened to be in a place where there was less tolerance for stumbles than in previous seasons. There were things the writers could have done to ameliorate my dislike of S6, and of Buffy's behavior, but if they had done those things, very likely another section of fandom would be screaming bloody murder right now. They had written themselves into a corner, and there was no way to get out of it without making someone unhappy--largely, I think, because they didn't realize they were in a corner until it was too late.

Here via the Herald

[skipp_of_ark]

Basically, I agree with much of what rahirah says. In particular, one of the most polarizing divisions amongst the audience was how one reacted to the pairing of Buffy with Spike. Regardless of what the writers said they intended the story to be, there was a significantly large and vocal enough segment who made it clear that as far as they were concerned, Spike was their POV character/avatar and the real star of the show, and that the only thing Buffy was required to do was reciprocate Spike's feelings, thus "rewarding" Spike as a character without him having to change and essentially turning the show into Mr. and Mrs. Spike. The other side was made up of fans who either shipped Buffy with another character or who felt that other characters were being already being neglected even before Spike was leapfrogged over them in terms of importance to Buffy and the writers. IMO, at least.

Re: Here via the Herald

[rahirah]

Regardless of what the writers said they intended the story to be, there was a significantly large and vocal enough segment who made it clear that as far as they were concerned, Spike was their POV character/avatar

Hey! I resemble that remark! *g*

(Actually the situation within the Spike-fan camp was far, FAR more complicated than that, but this isn't the place to go into it.)

Re: Here via the Herald

[skipp_of_ark]

All righty then. I can only comment on what the situation looked like from outside the Spike-fan camp during S6, given that my experience with fandom at the time was limited to one at-the-time big-size message board and a couple of smaller ones. (Hard to believe that there was once a time before livejournal, isn't it?)