The problem of Crowley

[maenad]

Yesterday on spn_heavymeta there was meta about Crowley. I clicked on it, and I read it, and I almost posted a comment ... but the thing is, cheery 'I am intrigued and excited by these revelations about Crowley!' posts don't really invite responses that go 'I am annoyed and disappointed by these revelations about Crowley', so ultimately I decided to treat it

Comments

[galathea_snb]

Man, your fondness for demons is really quite endearing! *g* I am glad you wrote up this meta. I tend to not think too deeply about demons, angels and monsters of any kind, I am usually way too occupied with thoughts about Sam and Dean, so your analyses always cover new ground for me

[maenad]

I'm glad my weird preoccupations are entertaining to somebody. :)

I used to be quite fond of Crowley and his clever scheming; the way he even convinced the demon-shy Sam, Dean, Bobby and Castiel to work with him was quite brilliant. I loved the element of uncertainty he always brought to the table - would he be trustworthy in his dealings with them or not - you just never knew where you ended up with him. This season I just find him incredibly boring and even Mark Sheppard's performance cannot distract from that fact.

I really miss Crowley's cleverness. I liked the way he was able to talk so frankly about the nature of schemes and negotiations, because he never doubted his ability to persuade and out think his opponents. I've always enjoyed Mark Sheppard's performances and I think it's a terrible shame that they're not giving him anything to work with here. It really struck me, watching that 'If you want something done right ...' bit from Goodbye Stranger how dull and cliché his behaviour is lately. And that was even from one of

[galwithglasses]

Machiavellian genius sums up what I really liked about Crowley. He basically won Season 7 - game, set, match and he was one of my favorite guest characters. I liked that he could scheme and plot his way in circles around Sam and Dean (and everybody else). It made him an interesting, formidable villain and he was a real head trip. Sam and Dean can do exterminations by brute force or specified weapon but I really liked them having to think around him. He was different from the usual monster of the week. Mark Sheppard does diabolical genius really well so it's a double disappointment. Plus we had Alastair as Grade A torturer and his creepy performance with Dean in On the Head of a Pin is hard to beat. He was still torturing Dean even though he was the one on the rack. I could have lived with Abaddon as the Big Bad pretty easily and left Crowley as he was

[maenad]

He basically won Season 7 - game, set, match and he was one of my favorite guest characters.

Yeah, Crowley's plotting was magnificent - and I get the feeling that this is one of the ways they wrote themselves into a corner. I mean, by the end of season seven he had everything he'd ever wanted. The apocalypse had been stopped. He was king of hell. The archangels were all dead. The other angels were either dead or in hiding. The leviathans were gone. Crowley was on top of the world.

Honestly, I don't think he has any more story left in him. At this point they've got him doing stuff 'just because' rather than because he's working toward an actual goal. As much as I like Crowley, I think they should have killed him off early in the season. Have someone come in and wipe him out so 'the devil we know' is replaced by some horrifying unknown quantity. I assume they didn't do that because Crowley is popular, but that isn't a good reason to keep a character on.

For some reason the general tone of the violence seems to be a lot more brutal

[borgmama1of5]

I started reading this with the mindset of what's the big deal, Crowley's a demon, but you have convinced me that the depth of his characterization has indeed devolved. Crowley used to be scary because he could quit possibly out-think our boys. Not he is just brute evil, and we all know that you can beat Winchesters to bloody pulp and they don't give up.

And yes, the gore level has really ratcheted this year, much to my non-enjoyment.

[maenad]

I do appreciate that not everyone is as interested in the portrayal of demons as I am. :)

But yeah - this:

Crowley used to be scary because he could quit possibly out-think our boys. Not he is just brute evil, and we all know that you can beat Winchesters to bloody pulp and they don't give up.

I think should be concerning to everybody. Heroes should have worthy adversaries to defeat. It makes for a more compelling story, and it means that the heroes have to be exceptional in some way to win. And I've always enjoyed Supernatural's villains. They were scary, powerful, smart and on some level generally sympathetic. That gave Sam and Dean something meaty and interesting to tackle. Diminish the villains and you end up diminishing the heroes as well. And I really don't want that.

And I do wish they'd tone down the gore a little. I'm not hugely squeamish, and I don't mind them using violence when they can demonstrate that they have a good reason for it. I'm uncomfortable that they seem to be doing it so much lately just because, well, '

[percysowner]

I could not agree more with this! I have felt that Sam has been OOC this season (a discussion for another time), but man, Crowley has been even more OOC. The guy who stopped torture in Hell suddenly is torture happy. The guy who lambasted the demon for killing the people he made deals with before their ten years were up because "We're not Wall Street, we're Hell. We have STANDARDS" was not telling people the conditions of their deals 10 years ago? I have no problem with Crowley being a Knight of Hell or an undercover angel. I always felt that Crowley was likely something "Other" not a normal demon. But JC has totally changed his personality and I don't know why. Crowley used to be fun. Now, as you say, he is standard Evil Overlord and it has diminished the show

[maenad]

I have felt that Sam has been OOC this season (a discussion for another time)

Not one I am unsympathetic to. :) The thing is, I thought Sam's (and often Dean's as well) characterisation was really off in the first half of the season, and then less so in the second half. There are still problems, but I find the later episodes to be much more watchable. What I can't do is make a connection between the characterisation in the first half of the season and the characterisation in the second half.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they've stopped being randomly childish and petty but - I don't know, did somebody flip a switch in their brains or something? It makes no sense and I have emotional whiplash.

The guy who stopped torture in Hell suddenly is torture happy. The guy who lambasted the demon for killing the people he made deals with before their ten years were up because "We're not Wall Street, we're Hell. We have STANDARDS" was not telling people the conditions of their deals 10 years ago?You know what bugs me especially about that

[ash48]

Excellently put

[maenad]

Thank you. :)

I spent yesterday re-watching some of the episodes from the second half of the season and I was left a little underwhelmed by the end I have to say. I wonder now if it's to do with them not really having a "big bad" this season. I mean, I know that Crowley is supposed to be that but, as you've eloquently stated here, he's not fulfilling that role in any sort of interesting way. I fear they have just said "be evil" and that's it - without any of the usual cunning or clever.

I think that the fact that Crowley (and for that matter Naomi) is pretty damn bland is a big part of the problem. I also think the pacing is badly off. Why they didn't lead with the Men of Letters/Trials plotline and weave in other elements as necessary I will never know. They essentially introduced the idea of closing the gates of hell in the opener, and then did nothing useful with it until episode 14. I know you said you were only looking at the second half of the season, which is definitely the better half, but I think the fact that it is so