The more things change.... ALL OF THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE.

[lyssie]

Snark ahoy.
eta: I'm exceedingly busy right now, so I'm not replying at ALL. Leverage takes precedence, sorry.
Navel-gazing 101: Boyslash is So Deep and Transformative

Comments

[frolicndetour]

Yeah, the thing that really gets me about these discussions is that they sound like they're taking place in 1970. At best. Yeah, there really weren't all that many interesting female characters in the original Star Trek. However many years ago that was. It's just not true anymore.* I actually saw one post on Metafandom using the ''no interesting women' argument as a reason for writing RPS. o.O I mean, on the one hand, while I'm certainly not pearl-clutchy about RPF, I can imagine the actors not liking the idea of it, so it's too weird to be like "you must write more porn about actresses for great justice." On the other hand, is this like, God-the-sexist-writer just didn't give us any interesting real women? Huh?

*And to the extent it is true, I think that's a function of what people choose to watch. You can't watch Supernatural and then claim that you are driven to slash because of the dearth of female characters.

[lesbiassparrow]

I actually saw one post on Metafandom using the ''no interesting women' argument as a reason for writing RPS.

For real? That's so...bizarre. And disturbing.

[frolicndetour]

To be fair, iirc it was just a throwaway line in a post that was recognizing the ways in which slash can be problematic in terms of erasing all the woman. As in "it's a problem that we don't write more women, but of course there just aren't as many compelling women to write about, and that's why we're forced to write slash and RPS." It was the second part that made me raise an eyebrow, though it might have just been a case of bad wording.

[lesbiassparrow]

I think if you're slipping in it there, no matter as how much of a minor point it says a great deal about how you see the world.

[ayiana]

lol! *cough*

Um. Yeah. I saw that, too. Kind of made me go all bug-eyed.

Could win the prize in a "People Who Just. Don't. Get it." contest, yes?

[miera_c]

Take everything they say out of context and wrong, accuse them of wanting only submissive/heteronormative women and dismiss their comments as "haters" and "people who don't liek* gays in media".

*sigh*

[ayiana]

Just dropping in to say that your post on the erasure of women (which I've been following mainly on Dreamwidth because that's where the Metafandom link went), is wonderfully cogent. It's too bad that so many of the people who need to hear it (and understand what you're trying to say) won't. Instead you're getting hit with a wave of defensiveness and rationalization, and I find that very sad.

[miera_c]

Thank you. I appreciate it. Honestly I was expecting more flaming than I've gotten so far *knocks wood* but the flip side is some blatant, fingers-in-the-ears "la la la I can't hear you!" responses that make me want to beat my head into my desk.

[ladielazarus]

Well if it helps, you cleared a lot up for me. :)

[sabaceanbabe]

I've seen mentions of some big metatastic slash discussion going on, but... There are no interesting women? Really? And boys are better? O_o

[ladielazarus]

I have to say that even as someone who is new to the whole argument, I can't believe that anyone thinks that they have a leg to stand on with this argument.

...sad.

[lyssie]

if I had links, I'd pass 'em on. But it's an argument that's been going the rounds since I was a wee!fan on irc, though it was in its infancy then, and mostly centered on het fans bashing the 'threat' to their pairing.

[meresy]

Yes, because when we like something that contains elements of problematic dominant paradigms, we are so enlightened in all ways by being members of group X and liking "subversive" genre Y that our tastes reflect nothing but our individual, entirely conscious choices. It is always a coincidence that I, Princess Snowflake McLiberalism, have mainstream tastes or opinions. And because I'm such a sensitive student of the word, my conscience in dealing with one group necessarily translates perfectly to enlightened handling of completely different minority issues.

Anybody who suggests there could be problems with what I like is some just of subcultural snob...

Generalization sucks, in general. And there is a happy medium betwixt thoughtful criticism and Taking! It! Seriously! On The Internet. *does not touch metafandom with a ten-foot-pole*

[miera_c]

It is always a coincidence that I, Princess Snowflake McLiberalism, have mainstream tastes or opinions. And because I'm such a sensitive student of the word, my conscience in dealing with one group necessarily translates perfectly to enlightened handling of completely different minority issues.

OMG THIS.

[amycat1959]

*splorfle!* Yep. I think I've met Princess Snowflake rather often.

OTOH, 20-some years back, I was a clueless Princess Snowflake. Half a lifetime later, I'm on the Internet, watching everyone from the "kids" to women older than I am making the same sort of ignorant and thoughtless facepalm-inducing comments I used to make. (I owe a BIG "Thank you" to my professors and classmates in "Social and Political Contexts Of Human Development"; their repeated verbal "whack me over the head with the Clue Stick" got me away from being a Princess of Unexamined Privilege-land...)

It can be rather exhausting to be the ones trying to educate the Princess Snowflakes, but those born and raised in privilege aren't going to learn by osmosis...

[lyssie]

*snerk* Exactly. (I'm sorry, I know I get tempted into imploding every time this stupid conversation happens in the fandom-at-large)