Question

[eviltigerlily]

What do we think about Aziraphale's apparent willingness to kill Adam to stop Armageddon (would that even work?) and his convincing Shadwell and Madam Tracey to help him, deliberately concealing the fact the Antichrist is an eleven year old boy? He's happy to forget about it when the actually get there, but he does seriously consider the option

Comments

[write_rewrite]

Hi there! Welcome to the comm, it's nice to meet you. <3 I'm Hopie!

Aaand I've always thought that it was Aziraphale trying to prevent the maximum amount of death by executing one - sort of like a sacrifice to ensure that the entire world wouldn't blow up, lots of people would't die, and so on and so forth; but, at the same time, the decision to kill Adam does bring to light what Crowley said, about Hell and Heaven not hosting entirely evil or entirely good creations.

Maybe Aziraphale's more human than he wants to admit? It is very, sort of, human reaction. Quite bizarre for an angel.

[eviltigerlily]

I understand the motivation: trying to prevent massive destruction, but it is still dubious. Killing the Antichrist may be (a impossible once he has his full powers; and (b insufficient to stop the Apocalypse once it's progressed beyond a certain stage. Even more importantly, Aziraphale avoids telling the people who would have to do the actual killing something they they are likely to find highly relevant: that they would have to kill a child. I don't know if he could go through with it even if Adam wasn't in the process of stopping the Apocalypse himself by the time Aziraphale arrives, but still.

I wonder how much control he has over the bodies he possesses. Could he make Madame Tracy help him and if he could would he have done it (the cause being so important)? Logic would say no, as that would annihilate free will, but he does limit the humans' free will by depriving them of information they would need to exercise it.

And thanks!

[write_rewrite]

(I love your icon, by the way!)

Well, yeah - if Madame Tracy knew that she was going to have to kill a young boy, I think he was scared that they wouldn't do it; it is kind of dubious, once you point it out - personally, I always thought that Aziraphale was far crueller than Crowley, to an extent, far less squeamish, and far more ruthlessly honest.

One of my favourite bits in the novel is when he tells off the television evangelist, or something to that extent, about how nobody will come to save them. That always seemed, to me, a bit excessive, though one could argue that Aziraphale just doesn't like preying on peoples' weaknesses.

I imagine that he would have done it - the end justifies the means, and so on - but would have probably had some difficulty in coming to terms with it later.

[eviltigerlily]

I think Crowley identifies with humans much more and therefore his actions are much more human. I don't know if I'd call Aziraphale more honest as he has no problem with minor lies and deception, but he's definitely less squeamish.

I like the bit with the televangelist too. Aziraphale does get rather nasty, but he is berating the man about a very nasty aspect of the idea of the Rapture, which he is espousing at the time: that before the Tribulations the righteous will be saved and get to sort of hover above the world watching the rest of humanity suffer.

[wisteria02]

Hmm... Well he has always seemed to be more pragmatic than Crowley, with less attachments (with the exception of his bookshop). It could be an Aziraphale thing.

Though, my head canon for angels (and this includes the angels from other fandoms like SPN), is that they can be quite divorced from emotions and see the greater picture rather than the individual.

I agree with write_rewrite that perhaps he was aiming to prevent that maximum amount of death, but I think that it's a very non-human reaction. Humans, especially when it comes to children tend to think with their emotions, and Aziraphale thinks with his mind. He loves the earth and humanity, but not in a human way, I think. (Although there was that incident with the flaming sword that got him bumped down into a Principality. He cared enough for Adam and Eve to defy orders.)

[eviltigerlily]

I agree that this is a pragmatic approach. Humans are capable of it as well, but it is associated with a distance that we would interpret as non-human.

There is something profoundly creepy about angelic love and caring. The love all of mankind because it is their nature, but have no problem with seeing it destroyed if it's part of the Plan. This makes no sense in human terms. Aziraphale is not like that, off course, but he is less human than Crowley is.

[wisteria02]

but he is less human than Crowley is.

True that.

And I just read your discussion of the tv evangelist above. I agree with the fact that he can be quite a bastard (enough of one for Crowley to like), and I can't even tell whether he was answering the evangelist honestly and innocently or if he knew what his words would bring to the man, and the masses watching. xD

Then there was also that quite callous disregard for that dove's life during Warlock's birthday party. Crowley was the one who cared enough to notice that it died, and brought it back to life.

Moments like these made me remember that fic Sacred and Profane by Afrai wherein Aziraphale was the demon and Crowley was the angel. It was magnificent in a shatter-your-heart-and-die-bleeding-on-the-floor sort of way.

[meilinn]

*also new here, btw <3*

My bet is on "humanity influencing Aziraphale "in the other direction"". He had no problems with breaking the rules and giving Adam and Eve his sword, while Crowley was, well, quite a demon, but they blended with humans, and if Crowley absorbed the goodness of mankind, that means Aziraphale did the same with its unpretty traits. What about gluttony or greed? He's certainly indulged himself in them too. It's not really bad, but very, very human.
Just my two cents :)

[hsavinien]

I always figured it more for a decision made out of desperation than anything else - he wants to save the world and it's the only way he can figure out how to do it. While the other angels seem to have little problem with the Antichrist presumably using Earth for the staging ground of their war, Aziraphale really loves Earth (possibly more than he's supposed to and enough to try the only thing he can think of to prevent it).

[shyshapca]

I'm with you in this one.

He loves Earth and humans, he was desperate, and yes, remember, that he wanted to ask the Metatron if they could fight this war somewhere else.
It was not a very nice thing to do, but I think he himself knew that too: right after the "the end justifies the means" is "and the road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
I feel that people tend to forget, that Aziraphale has his angelic moments - yes, he can be (and sometimes is) a bastard, but he also "couldn't resist an opportunity to do good", when they hit Anathema. He healed her fractured bone, fixed her bike - in the end it was better, than the original - and convinced Crowley to take her home. And he wanted to send her book back - I mean before he realised wich book it was.

So I belive in the "humanity influencing Aziraphale" thing as well.

Also: sorry for my English.

[hsavinien]

*nods* Definitely. All good point.

[eviltigerlily]

Yep. I didn't mean to say he was anything like a villain only that it was a very "the end justifies the means" thing, which I suppose could be both Heavenly and Hellish.

Aziraphale - killer of doves, healer of bikes.