Harley and Ivy: Pretty Abusive Too, Actually!
I've had this one typed up and ready for months, but I wanted to finish the Relationship Evolution article before I moved onto other features. So, here it is, at last!
Now, let me preface this with saying I have no trouble at all with HarleyxIvy. In fact, I think it's awful cute in all its twistedness and, frankly, I believe it IS canon, just that it's not been explicitly stated. There's something going on there, anyway.
But one thing that continues to baffle me is those who support the ship because they believe Ivy treats Harley so much better than Joker does. People seem to have this wonderfully romanticised idea that Ivy is indulgent and adoring of Harley at all times and never ever hurts her, uses her or ignores her.
Canon, in actuality, couldn't be further from the truth.
What we actually see in Harley & Ivy team-ups, is Ivy frequently losing her temper with Harley, dismissing her as a screw-up, saying she's stupid, shouting at her for incompetence, abandoning her or blaming her when things go wrong, ignoring her when distracted by other things, outright hurting her feelings in a very deliberate way and taking advantage of her when it suits her... and sometimes getting physical too.
In short, everything Joker does - just on a lesser scale and without the open acknowledgement of a sexual relationship between them.
WHAT! You cry! How can you claim this? Blasphemy! Ivy adores Harley and would never ever ever treat her like that bad, evil, nasty, mean, unappreciative Joker does.
Well... let's look at the evidence, shall we? Commentary on the images is in italics, general commentary on the relationship in plain text.
Here we have The Batman and Robin Adventues #8. In this comic, Ivy gets Robin under her spell and immediately begins rubbing Harley's nose in it. Ivy deliberately plays Harley off Robin, saying things like 'can I help it if he likes me more than you?' Ivy enjoys flaunting that Robin's attention is entirely fixed on her and not Harley.
But more than that - Ivy ignores Harley and doesn't bother to stick up for her when Robin tells her how hopeless she is. In fact, Ivy makes it very clear Robin is a better addition to the team than Harley. She also quite happily implies that Harley doesn't think.
She calculatedly rouses Harley's jealousy and enjoys hurting her friend's feelings because it makes her feel more desired - she has two people vying for her attention and the egotistical Ivy loves this.
Harley, of course, eventually retaliates by breaking the spell on Robin. Harley's cheery philosophy in the face of being captured is met only with a sullen 'shut up' by Ivy who is resentful and angry her friend got them caught again.
Her attitude to Harley in this book is consistently dismissive, belittling and impatient.
Of course, in some cases, this is simply sloppy writing by a writer who doesn't get the pairing or, more often, Harley - Harley is just written as a brainless screw-up, which we all know she's not. (eg: in the ep Harley & Ivy, it's Ivy who actually sets off the alarm and Harley who gets them out of the museum), just like it's sloppy writing when JokerxHarley is depicted as mindlessly abusive and Harley as a complete and unwilling victim.
But in the better stories - well, there's a LOT of interesting dynamics and psychology actually going on.
Harley is, in actuality, highly intelligent and very self-aware - she can be very manipulative and canny. But she is also a flaky personality who has a very dependent and submissive nature. She seems to be very happy to let others 'take over' for her and be in control.
Now, whilst with Joker Harley is given the responsibility for making his plans come to life, she is still TOLD what to do and how to do it. And, in that,she is actually given freedom from responsibility. With Ivy, Harley tends to sit back on her tuckus and let Red do all the work, coasting along with what Ivy wants. Which exasperates Red... and then what happens? Pammy insults Harley and gets a bit nasty.
But who's to say that's not something Harley is, perhaps subconsciously, seeking out? I'm not convinced it isn't.
In Gotham Adventures #29 Ivy gets physical. She strangles Harley and wrestles with her, and calls her names. She is only barely tolerant of her and her treatment of Harley is as rough as anything we've seen the Joker do - including the name-calling. Obviously the creators are limited by censorship but fans like to fill in gaps by imagining things get much worse between Joker and Harley behind closed doors. From what we see of Ivy's treatment of her, I find it interesting they don't see the same potential there. Personally, I think it gets uglier too.
Both Joker and Ivy are very domineering and dominant personalities, and Harley seems to amplify these aspects of their personality. It is certainly not without provocation Pammy gets fed-up with Harley at times - and I suspect this isn't entirely accidental on Harley's part. One thing Harley has learned in her life is that the bimbo schtick works for her - people underestimate her, and it helps her get what she wants. We see many examples of her playing this up. Sure, she's naturally perky, playful and wired, but we do see her using it as well.
Harley's supposed 'ineptitude' around Red is just as much a way of getting attention as it is when she prances around Joker.
In fact, when you stop to consider it, Joker and Ivy are extremely similar personalities. Of the entire Rogues Gallery, they're really the ones to watch out for. It's not coincidental that Harley is attracted to both of them.
In 'The Bet' we again see Ivy pitting herself sexually against Harley. Of course, Ivy has her special pheromones to aid her here, but she revels in it nonetheless, as Harley grows more and more sullen and put-out. But things remain mostly civil right up until Ivy decides that every man in the asylum isn't enough - she has to kiss the Joker too.
Despite the fact that Harley is screaming, begging, throwing herself on the floor and crying, Ivy is still going to kiss her best-friend's boyfriend. Even though she knows how fixated on Joker Harley is, and how much this will hurt her feelings.
The ONLY reason she doesn't end up doing it is because she thinks her charms haven't worked on Joker (thanks to a little creative voice-work from Ventriloquist). It is only hurt pride and not consideration for her friend that Ivy does not go through with kissing the Joker.
In this story, Ivy primarily erodes Harley's self-confidence and openly, willingly, even cheerfully brutalises her friend's feelings when it comes to the Joker.
I also want to make something very clear: Ivy DOES adore Harley. Definitely. Just as Joker loves Harley (in his own sick way).
But... we are talking about a trio of psychopathic nutters here. None of their emotions and affection is going to be expressed in a healthy way. I am very concerned that people seem to think because Ivy is also female that the dynamic between her and Harley can't still be abusive, or that it's more "okay" than it is between Joker and Harley. Abuse is abuse, and from anyone it can be very damaging.
But, as with Joker and Harley, I'm just not convinced the D/s, power exchange stuff isn't consensual on many levels. Harley is a masochist, we see this a lot. She's a submissive, we see that too. It's interesting that the two people who mean the most to her in all the world have both been traditionally loners, and known for their general cruelty towards the human race (though for very different reasons) and are very strong, domineering personalities.
And... Ivy goes through life manipulating and seducing people. That's what she DOES. She does it with everyone. Without a second thought. She doesn't really have an emotional attachment to anyone.
The Harley & Ivy miniseries, while largely a very light, fun and playful series of stories, also best exemplify some of the abusiveness in this relationship.
Ivy repeatedly calls Harley stupid, recklessly hurts her feelings, hits her several times and at one point is bashing her head against a tiled floor. It's all presented as comic relief, but if you stop to seriously consider this behaviour, it's incredibly abusive and violent - on a physical and emotional level.
And ya know what? Harley rolls with it. Same way she does with Joker. Sure, at times she's despondent Ivy's mad at her, but largely she takes the abuse with good naturedness, even submission. For me this underscores an essential fact about Harley: she's a masochistic sub and enjoys her twisted, abusive relationships with both Joker and Ivy.
The Gotham Girls miniseries continued the trend of the miniseries. Harley is positioned as Ivy's henchgirl and her fallgirl. Ivy loses her temper with Harley and is domineering and unkind.
She also, unawares Harley is listening, claims she uses people - ALL of them. When Harley questions her about this, she reassures her in a very manipulative fashion. So what's the truth? We actually don't know. However, Harley is reassured and pounces on Ivy for a hug - and Ivy looks very resistant about the whole thing. Finally, Ivy lets Harley get caught and uses the opportunity to escape. Not something Harley would ever do, but Ivy doesn't hesitate.
Hrmmmm. You know, it wouldn't take much to replace Ivy with Joker in this story. Or some of the above examples.
It is VERY significant that Harley is the one person that Ivy has never used her pheromones or potions on, as equally significant that Harley is the one person to have got so close to Joker and not been made the killing punchline on some sick gag (er... by that I mean her death, not her descent into insanity).
And I think a lot of that has to do with how Harley contextualises herself within the relationships. The more like a harmless, goofy, little puppy she is, the more they're inclined to tolerate and indulge her, and yet also give her the kind of dominance and direction she craves. This dynamic also suits both Joker and Ivy who have an overwhelming need to dominate and unbelievable narcissism to stroke.
But Harley can be plenty dangerous herself, and more than capable of getting into a bit of a tug of war on those strings if things really aren't going her way - in both relationships.
Ivy herself says it: Harley is a doormat. And she's just as much a doormat to Ivy as she is to Joker.
I feel that Harley is increasingly happy and confident and fulfilled in that role and that Ivy treads all over her just as much as Joker does. And Harley SEEKS THAT OUT.
The fact that is crosses the line from conscious D/s to abuse (which it does in both cases) is directly related to the fact ALL THREE PEOPLE ARE INSANE.
Don't ask them to conform to normal standards of behaviour, because it is beyond their capacity.
Furthermore, just because Ivy wants Harley to stand up to Joker, does NOT mean Ivy wants Harley to stand up to HER. Ivy is a control-freak who has lost her opportunity to control Harley through her potions by boosting her immune system. She will not, however, tolerate anyone telling her what to do in any fashion.
Rounding up the end of the DCAU comic examples (although there were plenty of other moments in the Gotham Girls webtoon and the animated series), was Batman Adventures #16 (vol 2). In this it is revealed that Ivy left behind a plant clone of herself - primarily to keep Batman unawares of her having left Gotham, but secondarily for Harley who she describes as 'a lonely little thing'. It demonstrates that yes, Ivy had some caring and consideration for Harley - but does not need or particularly miss her. It's a rather cold and heartbreaking moment - especially as it comes hot on the heels of the clone crashing Joker and Harley's wedding which prompts Harley to dissolve the friendship and swear to kill Ivy. It begs the question of whether the real Ivy would've had such an intense response to Joker and Harley's wedding, or if this is something the plant Ivy evolved independently. In many ways, Ivy is more emotionally distant than even the Joker.
I'm aware the mainstream Harley Quinn series took a different approach to this relationship, but the mildness of it and the happy-happy galpal vibe felt incredibly out of character to me, particularly from an Ivy point of view. In the mainstream, Ivy is supposed to be even more ruthless, manipulative and psychotic but in this, as in most other things, DCAU once again trumps.
I like HarleyxIvy just like I love JokerxHarley. But I like to see them as they are, as is true to the characters - and that is, well, pretty twisted.
I also feel the common fan depiction of this relationship as softly romantic ignores both characters' pathologies. Whilst I do believe a sexual relationship exists between them, I feel it is grounded primarily in friendship and, for Ivy, a way of exerting control over Harley and reaffirming her own desirability to herself and for Harley, a playful pursuit to soothe her need for attention and affection. For both of them, a hedonistic exercise. But it's not 'true love' and I think canon clearly demonstrates this.
Ultimately, all three characters involved in this little triangle have very queer identities. Joker has a pansexual/asexual identity, Ivy has a pansexual identity and Harley seems to have a Jokersexual/bisexual identity. On top of that, there is the whole Dominant/submissive, kinky aspect. As queer people, we cannot expect them to behave in a normative fashion and this is even more what I love about all of them and the relationships between them.
Ivy is a creature very much in touch with her sexuality, I find it hard to believe she feels a real need for 'one-trues' or monogamy. Joker - who can imagine Joker caring about sexual faithfulness, really? And Harley, whilst her emotions are utterly loyal to Joker, also has a high degree of comfort with using sexuality to manipulate - and if the subtext between her and Ivy is true, she's quite comfortable with playing outside of her relationship with Joker.
All of this adds up to three people who don't feel the need to constrain themselves to heteronormative standards of monogamy and ownership so why do we project these standards onto them, when their true natures and pathologies are so much more interesting and fun to play with?
For those who may argue I've presented a biased perspective by not including the moments of friendship and caring between them: well, we all already know they're there, for a start-off, secondly, this article wasn't intended to explore that aspect and finally, the many moments of caring and affection between Joker and Harley are frequently ignored in discussions about that relationship. There's an imbalance and I kind of hoped to redress that somewhat.
Now, let me preface this with saying I have no trouble at all with HarleyxIvy. In fact, I think it's awful cute in all its twistedness and, frankly, I believe it IS canon, just that it's not been explicitly stated. There's something going on there, anyway.
But one thing that continues to baffle me is those who support the ship because they believe Ivy treats Harley so much better than Joker does. People seem to have this wonderfully romanticised idea that Ivy is indulgent and adoring of Harley at all times and never ever hurts her, uses her or ignores her.
Canon, in actuality, couldn't be further from the truth.
What we actually see in Harley & Ivy team-ups, is Ivy frequently losing her temper with Harley, dismissing her as a screw-up, saying she's stupid, shouting at her for incompetence, abandoning her or blaming her when things go wrong, ignoring her when distracted by other things, outright hurting her feelings in a very deliberate way and taking advantage of her when it suits her... and sometimes getting physical too.
In short, everything Joker does - just on a lesser scale and without the open acknowledgement of a sexual relationship between them.
WHAT! You cry! How can you claim this? Blasphemy! Ivy adores Harley and would never ever ever treat her like that bad, evil, nasty, mean, unappreciative Joker does.
Well... let's look at the evidence, shall we? Commentary on the images is in italics, general commentary on the relationship in plain text.
Here we have The Batman and Robin Adventues #8. In this comic, Ivy gets Robin under her spell and immediately begins rubbing Harley's nose in it. Ivy deliberately plays Harley off Robin, saying things like 'can I help it if he likes me more than you?' Ivy enjoys flaunting that Robin's attention is entirely fixed on her and not Harley.
But more than that - Ivy ignores Harley and doesn't bother to stick up for her when Robin tells her how hopeless she is. In fact, Ivy makes it very clear Robin is a better addition to the team than Harley. She also quite happily implies that Harley doesn't think.
She calculatedly rouses Harley's jealousy and enjoys hurting her friend's feelings because it makes her feel more desired - she has two people vying for her attention and the egotistical Ivy loves this.
Harley, of course, eventually retaliates by breaking the spell on Robin. Harley's cheery philosophy in the face of being captured is met only with a sullen 'shut up' by Ivy who is resentful and angry her friend got them caught again.
Her attitude to Harley in this book is consistently dismissive, belittling and impatient.
Of course, in some cases, this is simply sloppy writing by a writer who doesn't get the pairing or, more often, Harley - Harley is just written as a brainless screw-up, which we all know she's not. (eg: in the ep Harley & Ivy, it's Ivy who actually sets off the alarm and Harley who gets them out of the museum), just like it's sloppy writing when JokerxHarley is depicted as mindlessly abusive and Harley as a complete and unwilling victim.
But in the better stories - well, there's a LOT of interesting dynamics and psychology actually going on.
Harley is, in actuality, highly intelligent and very self-aware - she can be very manipulative and canny. But she is also a flaky personality who has a very dependent and submissive nature. She seems to be very happy to let others 'take over' for her and be in control.
Now, whilst with Joker Harley is given the responsibility for making his plans come to life, she is still TOLD what to do and how to do it. And, in that,she is actually given freedom from responsibility. With Ivy, Harley tends to sit back on her tuckus and let Red do all the work, coasting along with what Ivy wants. Which exasperates Red... and then what happens? Pammy insults Harley and gets a bit nasty.
But who's to say that's not something Harley is, perhaps subconsciously, seeking out? I'm not convinced it isn't.
In Gotham Adventures #29 Ivy gets physical. She strangles Harley and wrestles with her, and calls her names. She is only barely tolerant of her and her treatment of Harley is as rough as anything we've seen the Joker do - including the name-calling. Obviously the creators are limited by censorship but fans like to fill in gaps by imagining things get much worse between Joker and Harley behind closed doors. From what we see of Ivy's treatment of her, I find it interesting they don't see the same potential there. Personally, I think it gets uglier too.
Both Joker and Ivy are very domineering and dominant personalities, and Harley seems to amplify these aspects of their personality. It is certainly not without provocation Pammy gets fed-up with Harley at times - and I suspect this isn't entirely accidental on Harley's part. One thing Harley has learned in her life is that the bimbo schtick works for her - people underestimate her, and it helps her get what she wants. We see many examples of her playing this up. Sure, she's naturally perky, playful and wired, but we do see her using it as well.
Harley's supposed 'ineptitude' around Red is just as much a way of getting attention as it is when she prances around Joker.
In fact, when you stop to consider it, Joker and Ivy are extremely similar personalities. Of the entire Rogues Gallery, they're really the ones to watch out for. It's not coincidental that Harley is attracted to both of them.
In 'The Bet' we again see Ivy pitting herself sexually against Harley. Of course, Ivy has her special pheromones to aid her here, but she revels in it nonetheless, as Harley grows more and more sullen and put-out. But things remain mostly civil right up until Ivy decides that every man in the asylum isn't enough - she has to kiss the Joker too.
Despite the fact that Harley is screaming, begging, throwing herself on the floor and crying, Ivy is still going to kiss her best-friend's boyfriend. Even though she knows how fixated on Joker Harley is, and how much this will hurt her feelings.
The ONLY reason she doesn't end up doing it is because she thinks her charms haven't worked on Joker (thanks to a little creative voice-work from Ventriloquist). It is only hurt pride and not consideration for her friend that Ivy does not go through with kissing the Joker.
In this story, Ivy primarily erodes Harley's self-confidence and openly, willingly, even cheerfully brutalises her friend's feelings when it comes to the Joker.
I also want to make something very clear: Ivy DOES adore Harley. Definitely. Just as Joker loves Harley (in his own sick way).
But... we are talking about a trio of psychopathic nutters here. None of their emotions and affection is going to be expressed in a healthy way. I am very concerned that people seem to think because Ivy is also female that the dynamic between her and Harley can't still be abusive, or that it's more "okay" than it is between Joker and Harley. Abuse is abuse, and from anyone it can be very damaging.
But, as with Joker and Harley, I'm just not convinced the D/s, power exchange stuff isn't consensual on many levels. Harley is a masochist, we see this a lot. She's a submissive, we see that too. It's interesting that the two people who mean the most to her in all the world have both been traditionally loners, and known for their general cruelty towards the human race (though for very different reasons) and are very strong, domineering personalities.
And... Ivy goes through life manipulating and seducing people. That's what she DOES. She does it with everyone. Without a second thought. She doesn't really have an emotional attachment to anyone.
The Harley & Ivy miniseries, while largely a very light, fun and playful series of stories, also best exemplify some of the abusiveness in this relationship.
Ivy repeatedly calls Harley stupid, recklessly hurts her feelings, hits her several times and at one point is bashing her head against a tiled floor. It's all presented as comic relief, but if you stop to seriously consider this behaviour, it's incredibly abusive and violent - on a physical and emotional level.
And ya know what? Harley rolls with it. Same way she does with Joker. Sure, at times she's despondent Ivy's mad at her, but largely she takes the abuse with good naturedness, even submission. For me this underscores an essential fact about Harley: she's a masochistic sub and enjoys her twisted, abusive relationships with both Joker and Ivy.
The Gotham Girls miniseries continued the trend of the miniseries. Harley is positioned as Ivy's henchgirl and her fallgirl. Ivy loses her temper with Harley and is domineering and unkind.
She also, unawares Harley is listening, claims she uses people - ALL of them. When Harley questions her about this, she reassures her in a very manipulative fashion. So what's the truth? We actually don't know. However, Harley is reassured and pounces on Ivy for a hug - and Ivy looks very resistant about the whole thing. Finally, Ivy lets Harley get caught and uses the opportunity to escape. Not something Harley would ever do, but Ivy doesn't hesitate.
Hrmmmm. You know, it wouldn't take much to replace Ivy with Joker in this story. Or some of the above examples.
It is VERY significant that Harley is the one person that Ivy has never used her pheromones or potions on, as equally significant that Harley is the one person to have got so close to Joker and not been made the killing punchline on some sick gag (er... by that I mean her death, not her descent into insanity).
And I think a lot of that has to do with how Harley contextualises herself within the relationships. The more like a harmless, goofy, little puppy she is, the more they're inclined to tolerate and indulge her, and yet also give her the kind of dominance and direction she craves. This dynamic also suits both Joker and Ivy who have an overwhelming need to dominate and unbelievable narcissism to stroke.
But Harley can be plenty dangerous herself, and more than capable of getting into a bit of a tug of war on those strings if things really aren't going her way - in both relationships.
Ivy herself says it: Harley is a doormat. And she's just as much a doormat to Ivy as she is to Joker.
I feel that Harley is increasingly happy and confident and fulfilled in that role and that Ivy treads all over her just as much as Joker does. And Harley SEEKS THAT OUT.
The fact that is crosses the line from conscious D/s to abuse (which it does in both cases) is directly related to the fact ALL THREE PEOPLE ARE INSANE.
Don't ask them to conform to normal standards of behaviour, because it is beyond their capacity.
Furthermore, just because Ivy wants Harley to stand up to Joker, does NOT mean Ivy wants Harley to stand up to HER. Ivy is a control-freak who has lost her opportunity to control Harley through her potions by boosting her immune system. She will not, however, tolerate anyone telling her what to do in any fashion.
Rounding up the end of the DCAU comic examples (although there were plenty of other moments in the Gotham Girls webtoon and the animated series), was Batman Adventures #16 (vol 2). In this it is revealed that Ivy left behind a plant clone of herself - primarily to keep Batman unawares of her having left Gotham, but secondarily for Harley who she describes as 'a lonely little thing'. It demonstrates that yes, Ivy had some caring and consideration for Harley - but does not need or particularly miss her. It's a rather cold and heartbreaking moment - especially as it comes hot on the heels of the clone crashing Joker and Harley's wedding which prompts Harley to dissolve the friendship and swear to kill Ivy. It begs the question of whether the real Ivy would've had such an intense response to Joker and Harley's wedding, or if this is something the plant Ivy evolved independently. In many ways, Ivy is more emotionally distant than even the Joker.
I'm aware the mainstream Harley Quinn series took a different approach to this relationship, but the mildness of it and the happy-happy galpal vibe felt incredibly out of character to me, particularly from an Ivy point of view. In the mainstream, Ivy is supposed to be even more ruthless, manipulative and psychotic but in this, as in most other things, DCAU once again trumps.
I like HarleyxIvy just like I love JokerxHarley. But I like to see them as they are, as is true to the characters - and that is, well, pretty twisted.
I also feel the common fan depiction of this relationship as softly romantic ignores both characters' pathologies. Whilst I do believe a sexual relationship exists between them, I feel it is grounded primarily in friendship and, for Ivy, a way of exerting control over Harley and reaffirming her own desirability to herself and for Harley, a playful pursuit to soothe her need for attention and affection. For both of them, a hedonistic exercise. But it's not 'true love' and I think canon clearly demonstrates this.
Ultimately, all three characters involved in this little triangle have very queer identities. Joker has a pansexual/asexual identity, Ivy has a pansexual identity and Harley seems to have a Jokersexual/bisexual identity. On top of that, there is the whole Dominant/submissive, kinky aspect. As queer people, we cannot expect them to behave in a normative fashion and this is even more what I love about all of them and the relationships between them.
Ivy is a creature very much in touch with her sexuality, I find it hard to believe she feels a real need for 'one-trues' or monogamy. Joker - who can imagine Joker caring about sexual faithfulness, really? And Harley, whilst her emotions are utterly loyal to Joker, also has a high degree of comfort with using sexuality to manipulate - and if the subtext between her and Ivy is true, she's quite comfortable with playing outside of her relationship with Joker.
All of this adds up to three people who don't feel the need to constrain themselves to heteronormative standards of monogamy and ownership so why do we project these standards onto them, when their true natures and pathologies are so much more interesting and fun to play with?
For those who may argue I've presented a biased perspective by not including the moments of friendship and caring between them: well, we all already know they're there, for a start-off, secondly, this article wasn't intended to explore that aspect and finally, the many moments of caring and affection between Joker and Harley are frequently ignored in discussions about that relationship. There's an imbalance and I kind of hoped to redress that somewhat.