Touchpoints for somewhat nonspecific alternate history, redux?

[tamtrible]

I asked about this here, and got lots of nice discussion about where I was failing at history, but very little on the part of what I was asking that really *was* a little detail. So, I figured I'd try again, *just* asking that part

Comments

[sushidog]

I think you may have trouble getting the kind of answers you're looking for; if you change who won a battle or who had what children (assuming you're talking about royal lines), you change _everything_ that comes afterwards. If Arthur survives long enough to have a son, for example, the reformation in England is going to happen in a totally different way; not at all, or sooner and more sincerely, or more violently. History isn't a straight line, with events being mere sideshows; events in history determine the future course of the timeline, so changing one "small" thing is probably not going to a matter of just having a different name for a place, it's going to rewrite everything that comes after it. Basically, there isn't really any such thing as a one-off historical event which has no other effects

[tamtrible]

I'm aiming for "similar vague arc of history", rather than "everything turned out identical". For example, I probably won't go into the genealogy of the monarchs of England (I'm probably going with Anglia, as suggested below), but will instead pull a likely-sounding name out of my hat. I'm just aiming for enough hints that you will conclude you're on a world that is, at least geographically, basically ours.

[madwriter]

Maybe condensed to Saxland, if that doesn't sound odd, the way Angleland was condensed to England, and the original Saxon territories were likewise condensed (Wessex, Sussex, Essex)?

[tamtrible]

I got a few good suggestions downthread a bit. Good point about the other Saxony, which I obviously didn't know about [g].

[alextiefling]

You got this far without knowing about the other Saxony? I'm suprised; I assumed you knew, or I'd have mentioned it on your last post.

[robling_t]

I think it may be hard not to go off pretty far into the weeds with the snowball effect over time of seemingly small changes, but a place to start thinking about differences might be with the effects on a balance of power that magic could create: for example, the "paganism" question often got resolved in the actual timeline by the accumulation of small advantages by one group (stirrups, say) until they were able to outcompete their neighbors, take their land/stuff, lather rinse repeat until somebody ended up with all the toys. So, is the presence of magic going to be an equalizer in this situation? You may end up with scenarios where, f'r'ex, Scotland and Wales are still autonomous regions because they were able to successfully repel/deter anybody who wanted their stuff; how big is the Roman Empire even going to get if it meets capable resistance? A force like Christianity might even be their competitive advantage in that situation, depending on where you want to set the sliders on how effective/attractive ideology is as a tool of

[sushidog]

Although Scotland and England unified because of the converging royal line, not through combat; when Elizabeth I died, she named James VI of Scotland as her successor (he was the grandson on her aunt, who had married the king of Scotland, and thus the nearest legitimate protestant male relative). You'd have to do an awful lot of re-arranging of the royal line in order to avoid that unification, and it would completely change the royal line thereafter, so I'm not sure there's a good way to keep Scotland independent without making major changes.

[robling_t]

I think you're pretty well fucked at least a thousand years before that, TBH; most historical marital alliances came about because the parties wanted to consolidate some position, and if the OP's magic system throws a wrench into the idea of just rolling over somebody else to add their distinctiveness to your own, then at the very least you're radically changing the motivation to ally and consolidate, which could actually be an interesting tack to consider for a story if political power is built on who's inheriting Great-Aunt Agnetha's Ring of Summon Honeybadgers in this generation rather than the abstract concept of the crown...

[tamtrible]

Most magical items are... advantageous, but not enough to single-handedly turn the tide of war. Unless it was a very close war to start with. There would still be alliances for the usual reasons, though there might be a *few* pockets of resistance (of one sort or another) that didn't hold out in our reality.

[nuranar]

Details like this are extremely difficult to suggest without worldbuilding provided, or nearly complete. The worldbuilding is up to you; but so is the level of detail and continuity. How much are the readers going to actually know? Are you going to have maps? Info dumps? Narrative clues like climate, flora and fauna, physical geography and landmarks, and/or references to ancient (unchanged) history, to make it clear that this is an AU Europe? The less you explain in-text, the less you have to handwave or rely on suspension of disbelief

[tamtrible]

True.

I was going to be vague with the history, and just drop hints. Our Heroine probably starts out in England-or-equivalent, then ends up on an ocean voyage that... I haven't figured out yet. Central Europe probably won't come up much, but anywhere coastal might.

Aside from the occasional pocket of pagans (probably mostly in relatively remote/outlying areas), I'm thinking that the Vikings or their descendents still have at least trace contact with the Americas, so while England and so forth may have sent over colonies, the natives were... not unfamiliar with white folks, and Columbus probably never "discovered" America (he or his equivalent may still have tried to find a short-cut to China by sailing west, but he wouldn't have been surprised to find a continent in the way, I think). And Europe may have gotten new-world plants, like tomatoes and potatoes, a bit sooner.

[tamtrible]

And as far as the "what's attractive" thing, I'm kind of asking "what have you seen others do in this vein, that's Just Wrong On So Many Levels" or whatever. Or, if someone suggests something (like I suggested the Saxony thing that everyone's called me on) and you think it sounds implausible or wrong...

[laurose8]

I believe the English Fens had a rather spooky reputation. Perhaps the Fenmen could have fought off the draining? There might even be a few grendels still lurking in the depths. If you want, you could make them human enough to be an oppressed minority. Maybe Ezo could be an independent, or at least separate, Ainu polity. A stronger Brittany?

How do 'the Russias' or 'the Germanies' strike you? Or the Seven Irelands? Pictland? Dumnonia?

Would Avalon or Kitzeh or the Hesperides being real, even intermittently real, work in your verse?

Different titles for similar works, such as Shaxcper's Fourth Witch?

The Library of Alexandria/Hephaistonia surviving? Venice's magic keeping her power for longer? A modern Granada?

Though based on the same laws of nature, the Turkish shaman uses them differently to the conventional European or West Asian sorcerer?

How would the Atlantic (or East African) slave trade differ if the dying slaves could sometimes use this magic?

[tamtrible]

The Russias and The Germanies strike me just fine. 7 Irelands seems to be a tad much somehow.

Where is/was/would be Pictland and/or Dumnonia? Or Granada (I feel like I should know that one)

The world has the same physical geography, and the same complement of species (give or take an extinction or 2). The magic involved calls entropy names and makes fun of its mother, but tends to leave the rest of the laws of physics more or less alone.

The *entire* Library of Alexandria surviving strikes me as... less than likely, but I can definitely see more of its contents having been saved one way or another.

[laurose8]

Pictland would be in Scotland, probably in the east of it. Dumnonia would be Devon, possibly incorporating Somerset. Likely to me seems an eastern border on the river Exe. Up to you whether it includes Cornwall. Granada was the last of Muslim Spain - Cordoba's another kingdom of it.

That idea of less extinctions sound very good!

[tamtrible]

I'm not sure how many bits I want to break Britain up into. Adding Pictland and Dumnonia might be a bit much, if I also have Northumbria.

Granada... I think I like the idea of Granada sticking around. Probably *just* Granada (unless there's some other likely candidate for "last tiny bit of Muslim Spain).

And it wouldn't necessarily be *fewer* extinctions, just... different ones.