Touchpoints for and thoughts on somewhat nonspecific alternate history?

[tamtrible]

I'm toying with a story idea, and rather than either set it in an entirely fictional world, or set it in the real world and pretend the presence of magic wouldn't alter history in a lot of different ways, I figure I'd kind of aim for "obviously this world, but different"--for example, I was thinking of having the major language and dominant country

Comments

[whswhs]

Narrative history would have been different, but folkways might have persisted. See for example Alan MacFarlane's studies of English individualism, which trace it back to the later Middle Ages, and Emmanuel Todd's work on family organization as a determinant of political values; or, rather later on, David Fischer's Albion's Seed, which examines how different regional British cultures took root in different parts of the United States.

[shocolate]

No help but "like being an atheist today--you may get people who dislike you for it, and you may have trouble holding any kind of public office in some areas" really doesn't apply in Britain...

[lied_ohne_worte]

Or, for instance, Germany. Well, except in some regions of Bavaria where you'd probably best be Catholic (Protestantism might not be much better than atheism there). But honestly, I have no idea nor do I care what, if any, religion any of the local and most of the state and national politicians follow, except for the ones where it's made an issue for some reason or other. OP, from your profile page it looks like you might be American - I'd be careful translating an US view of religion's influence on politics, society and so on to European countries. The influences do exist, but they manifest themselves rather differently (for example, more than just a few fringe people fighting the teaching of evolution in Germany would be absurd, and people wanting to homeschool children so they aren't polluted by evil non-Christian society need to seek asylum in the US).

[shocolate]

Yes, politicians being openly religious are just embarassing - Tony Blair didn't come out as Catholic until after he left office!

[sushidog]

To be fair, if he'd been protestant, he probably would have "come out" earlier; Catholicism tends to get the side-eye in the UK, particularly in positions of power.

[anonymous]

First, you're idealizing the Romans. They certainly did not have a laissez-faire attitude about religion unless it was the Roman religion. See Christians dying. You'd have better luck investigating China's attitude towards religion. Secondly, much of European history was motivated by conflicts between Catholics and Protestants or heads of state and church, etc., etc. You basically have to rewrite culture, both the origins and evolutions of. It's more research than your average world-building.

[lied_ohne_worte]

Good point. Not just Christians dying either - not wanting to worship the Emperor as a God once the Romans had come up with him being one wasn't something that went over well either, no matter if people paid taxes and didn't hurt anyone. This is what happened to the Temple of Jerusalem.

ETA: The Romans weren't "tolerant of other religions" as such - they were just rather willing and able to integrate other Gods into their own system. So Zeus was really Jupiter, and Bacchus Dionysos and so on, and more "exotic" Eastern gods could be integrated too as long as the rituals weren't too outrageous. That worked quite well for all involved - unless they happened upon people with some form of "Thou shalt not have other gods beside me" making them emphatic about their god definitely not being Jupited, at which point tolerance wasn't much present.

[tamtrible]

Actually, there's some evidence, as far as I know, suggesting that the Christian martyrdom thing was... at least in part something that was made up after the fact.

Good point about the heads of state/church thing, et cetera. I'm not suggesting that history ran anything close to *exactly* the same, just that... the 10-second description of European history for the last 2000 or so years would be about the same, except for a slightly reduced role of Christianity.

[sushidog]

I'm not suggesting that history ran anything close to *exactly* the same, just that... the 10-second description of European history for the last 2000 or so years would be about the same, except for a slightly reduced role of Christianity.
Yeah, I think the issue you're going to have with this is that the history of Europe for the last 2000 years or so _is_ the history of Christianity; so suggesting that you can change the latter with only minor effects on the former is kind of like saying "I want the history of America for the last 600 years to be basically the same, just without any immigration from Europe".

[laurose8]

My first reaction was, why aren't animal deaths adequate​? If there's something about blood compatability, you might get blood types recognised earlier, and also a different, and here perhaps less horizontal, racism

[shark_hat]

"For adult deaths, there could be something like the Thuggee cult."

The Celtic severed head cult would have been MASSIVE if the heads had *really* been magic.

[tamtrible]

The process only works on humans, not animals, but blood type doesn't affect it. I'm still playing with the idea, but I think it has something to do with will. The nature and/or character of the object depends in large part on the will/nature of the person being transformed. For example, a warrior might become a sword, while a scribe might become an inkwell

[laurose8]

It sounds as if it would make a fascinating world, and good stories. I agree with the others that such a significant technology, apparently arising from before the Neolithic, would result in a very different world by the level you're aiming at. You could still have some empire rise and fracture, and religions with strong resemblances to ours. Does the distilled item last longer than one handmade? Medical items would make a lot of difference, too.

A dense, urban population would have a further advantage over tribal societies in that they could produce not only more magical goods, but better trained distillers, whose goods would be of a higher grade. Thus any Rome-like Empire would spread further, and resist better any barbarian incursions.

I can't help wondering what love suicides and suicide pacts would produce.

It does sound interesting. Please drop a line if you write it. I'd love to read about this 'verse.

[sushidog]

So much of European Mediaeval politics involve the Holy Roman Empire, and indeed early Mediaeval Europe was shaped by a couple of hundred years of Christianised Roman rule, so I think if you take that out, Europe would develop very very differently; and as others have pointed out, 16th century Europe was pretty much defined by the Reformation. Science, learning, and the printing press were all fuelled and funded by Christianity, at least in the West (Gutenberg is credited with the development of the printing press in Europe, and writers like Luther and Erasmus helped to popularise it

[tamtrible]

Good point. Bah.

And, I think it was more Islam that was doing conversion by the sword...

[ashen_key]

Can I also suggest that you look at the histories of the religions you're dealing with? It'll help in actual grounding of what happened.

[sushidog]

You must be thinking of Reconquista Spain. :) No, Muslims did not convert anyone by the sword. I think you are the last person to learn that, lol.