it's been a while since I studied Ancient Egypt, but I'll try my best -
2) How can there be several incarnations of Horus at the same time? - It is my understanding that Pharaoh was seen as the incarnation of Horus and son of Re. Hence, he was already son of Re from his birth onward. So how does this work when a Pharaoh is mudered/replaced by a pretender, who then also claims to be Horus incarnate? Can there be several Horus incarnates at the same time, or is there only "one" spirit of Horus? How did the Ancient Egyptians solve this paradox? I wish I knew (and if you find out, could you let me know?); this was what always puzzled me about the Intermediate Periods.
my guess is that, if the pretender succeeds, then clearly he's Horus, and the man he's deposed clearly wasn't Horus. (or one of them might've been Setukh - some Pharoahs claimed descent from Set). The pretender then has his predecessor's name removed from stone carvings and histories, and the pretender legitimizes himself.
3) I'm looking for a word to describe an aura
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I like your explanation for the Horus problem. He who wins says "Naaaah, *I*'m the real one!". In my particular story, I have the son of the "real" Pharaoh and the son of the "pretender" Pharaoh meeting...but who would be the real Horus? Could my "real" heir still claim to be son of the gods as well as the other one? *confused*
I thought ba was of a more transcnedent nature and not something one would be able to see energy-wise?
the living Pharoah became Osiris & one of his sons became Horus.Yesh! I can work with this
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in letters with foreign rulers, a Pharoah could and would extend a diplomatic politeness, calling the foreign king a son of the Egyptian gods. the "real" heir, though, might insist on calling the pretender a son of Set.
on the other hand, if they're meeting one another, I'm assuming they've agreed not to kill each other (at the moment), so have agreed not to say anything to enrage each other. (thinking and verbally sniping, on the other hand...)
I'd have to dig up my encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, but I think ba was visually represented by a bird. as far as seeing the energy of things...short of using Egyptian paint strategies (regeneration as green, men and workers as red, women and pottery as white), I think it's up to you.
>>the living Pharoah became Osiris & one of his sons became Horus. >Yesh! I can work with this!while I'm not sure it was used before Ramses 2nd, given how the Pharoahs loved having precedents (I heard somewhere in class that the Pharoahs encouraged a form of archeology, one designed to glorify the guy
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(thinking and verbally sniping, on the other hand...)
Haha I like how you think xD
Nice that there's not too much known about the energies, think I could get away with simply calling it Ib-ka / Ka'ib (which sounds worse? :P)
Your ideas are definitely helping me get some things in order, I've been trying to have the good guys support the trinity thing that generally lets anyone believe whatever they please, while the bad guys are all OMG MY GOD IS THE ONLY ONE! :P I know, not so subtle message :P
For the Fifth Dynasty, there isn't much documentation, but you might want to look at he Pyramid Texts (translations available online -- just Google it) to get a taste of what the religious language in this period was like.
o_O Ohhhh this is great! I somehow had completely missed this. Thanks! Now only to filter out all the references like There is overwhelming evidence in the Pyramid Texts: (5) that the Hieroglyphic vocabulary is an Atlantean dictionary, (6) that Hieroglyphic writing is over 78,000 years old
I like that there's not overly much known...means that if I write something, it's not going to too blatantly OMG WRONG! to most people. That said, I'm compulsive about facts ;)
Yeah, the Pyramids really bring out the crazies, don't they? I like the translation site here -- the Mercer translation at Sacred Texts. But the Pyramid Texts Online version is good too. As far as secondary stuff goes... if you can get onto a university server and check actual academic articles via JSTOR or something, it's probably better than random stuff on the web.
One thing to bear in mind is that it looks like Egyptian religion does change over time -- Amun isn't as important as Ra until Thebes becomes important, for example -- and is very localized (that is, different regions seem to have had different chief gods, at least early on) -- but that this isn't something the Egyptians themselves necessarily recognize. They prefer a history that stresses continuity.
I'll give JSTOR a shot, but I'm not terribly hopeful as my uni would have licences for biological journals just fine, but archeaology...not so much. Worth a shot though.
My story is set around Memphis (Hwt-ka-Ptah) as historically, my Pharaohs happened to be around there. I wouldn't mind substituting Amun for Ra or shoving them together. I think I can work with a discontinuum that's not recognized...
7) No horses, but donkeys, yes. See this story about the recent discovery of a prestigious burial of 10 donkeys that had clearly been used as transport animals at Abydos dating from about 3000 BC.
A book you might find useful is Daily Lives of the Egyptian Gods by Meeks and Favard-Meeks. It's somewhat heavy reading in places, but it would shed light on a few of these questions. Among other things, it strives to take the stories of the gods on their own terms, so, to a linear mindset, it's kind of a crazy all-things-at-once sort of story--but that too might help in getting the feel for the mythology. Among other things, they note that the role was the identity, to a great extent. So, whoever carries out the role of Horus on the throne is Horus.
Lurker Egyptologist here...
anonymous
April 12 2008, 17:34:43 UTC
1. Amun was one of the most important gods in the Egyptian pantheon and his first appearance that we know of is from the Pyramid Texts along with his wife Amaunet, so he was definitely worshipped in the fifth dynasty. However, temples from this time to Amun seem to exist solely in the Theban region where he was worshipped as a local deity until the early 11th Dynasty. More widespread worship seems to be a result of the Theban pharaohs who ascended in this time, due to the close links in Egypt between politics and religion. 11th dynasty was also when he merged with Ra, who was the dominant god of the old kingdom. Lots of interesting stuff in the later dynasties about the rivalry between the cult of Amun and the kings, but nothing near as good in the early ones
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Woo... Got a bit carried away here...
anonymous
April 12 2008, 17:36:04 UTC
2. The proper title of the king was 'nesw-bit': he of the sedge and bee. The 'nesw could be seen to be referring to the eternal divine king and in effect kingship itself whilst the 'bit' is every individual king. Thus each king was a combination of divine and mortal, a representative of the gods meant to restore the original balance of the universe. Each new king became associated with Horus whilst the old became Osirus. Ideally this was a father-son position, but if not the replacement could get by with emphasising any links he had to the previous king (a loyal general, a guardian, 'he was like a brother to me' ). Pratically he could do his best to show he was continuing the old kings legacy through completing the tomb of his predecessor and any works, and politically it was propaganda all the way with statues, paintings and reliefs depicting his divine birth and bestowal of kingship by the gods. And so he becomes Horus through simply being the king and managing to maintain the position. Although we can assume as a royal court
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God, can I blather about priests.
anonymous
April 12 2008, 17:37:02 UTC
4. Many priests inherited positions from their fathers or were otherwise appointed by pharaoh. In the Old Kingdom, knowledge of religious doctrine wasn't necessary for a priest and they didn't have to work full time at a temple. Temporary priests were called 'wab' meaning 'lector' and most served for one month a year and then returned to their ordinary jobs, usually junior bureaucrats and craftsmen. They were often used to carry offerings or recite prayers for deceased, which suggests they had to be somewhat literate. These priests made up the majority of a temple and most would probably never come in contact with the statue of the deity. They were also lucrative, in that the priests often recieved a portion of temple revenue whilst in service
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Can the end be in sight?
anonymous
April 12 2008, 17:40:07 UTC
7. The Nile was the fastest method, but typical trade routes were established over land. Roads were little more than dirt paths and for most of the part routes had to be memorised. Donkeys were the main beasts of burden used primarily by merchants and traders and not widely accessible to the poor. Depending on how fit or old, a person could travel 16-19km a day on foot. A person traveling on a donkey from Memphis at the Delta of Egypt to Thebes near the border would take about six months to complete journey if they followed the oasis trade route. Wandering into the desert or over the river without a fixed itinerary would typically result in death, either from the conditions or from wandering bands of thieves and 'sand dwellers
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Comments 32
2) How can there be several incarnations of Horus at the same time?
- It is my understanding that Pharaoh was seen as the incarnation of Horus and son of Re. Hence, he was already son of Re from his birth onward. So how does this work when a Pharaoh is mudered/replaced by a pretender, who then also claims to be Horus incarnate? Can there be several Horus incarnates at the same time, or is there only "one" spirit of Horus? How did the Ancient Egyptians solve this paradox?
I wish I knew (and if you find out, could you let me know?); this was what always puzzled me about the Intermediate Periods.
my guess is that, if the pretender succeeds, then clearly he's Horus, and the man he's deposed clearly wasn't Horus. (or one of them might've been Setukh - some Pharoahs claimed descent from Set). The pretender then has his predecessor's name removed from stone carvings and histories, and the pretender legitimizes himself.
3) I'm looking for a word to describe an aura ( ... )
Reply
I like your explanation for the Horus problem. He who wins says "Naaaah, *I*'m the real one!". In my particular story, I have the son of the "real" Pharaoh and the son of the "pretender" Pharaoh meeting...but who would be the real Horus? Could my "real" heir still claim to be son of the gods as well as the other one? *confused*
I thought ba was of a more transcnedent nature and not something one would be able to see energy-wise?
the living Pharoah became Osiris & one of his sons became Horus.Yesh! I can work with this ( ... )
Reply
on the other hand, if they're meeting one another, I'm assuming they've agreed not to kill each other (at the moment), so have agreed not to say anything to enrage each other.
(thinking and verbally sniping, on the other hand...)
I'd have to dig up my encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, but I think ba was visually represented by a bird.
as far as seeing the energy of things...short of using Egyptian paint strategies (regeneration as green, men and workers as red, women and pottery as white), I think it's up to you.
>>the living Pharoah became Osiris & one of his sons became Horus.
>Yesh! I can work with this!while I'm not sure it was used before Ramses 2nd, given how the Pharoahs loved having precedents (I heard somewhere in class that the Pharoahs encouraged a form of archeology, one designed to glorify the guy ( ... )
Reply
(thinking and verbally sniping, on the other hand...)
Haha I like how you think xD
Nice that there's not too much known about the energies, think I could get away with simply calling it Ib-ka / Ka'ib (which sounds worse? :P)
Your ideas are definitely helping me get some things in order, I've been trying to have the good guys support the trinity thing that generally lets anyone believe whatever they please, while the bad guys are all OMG MY GOD IS THE ONLY ONE! :P I know, not so subtle message :P
I shall look into Khepera xD
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(5) that the Hieroglyphic vocabulary is an Atlantean dictionary,
(6) that Hieroglyphic writing is over 78,000 years old
I like that there's not overly much known...means that if I write something, it's not going to too blatantly OMG WRONG! to most people. That said, I'm compulsive about facts ;)
Reply
One thing to bear in mind is that it looks like Egyptian religion does change over time -- Amun isn't as important as Ra until Thebes becomes important, for example -- and is very localized (that is, different regions seem to have had different chief gods, at least early on) -- but that this isn't something the Egyptians themselves necessarily recognize. They prefer a history that stresses continuity.
Reply
I'll give JSTOR a shot, but I'm not terribly hopeful as my uni would have licences for biological journals just fine, but archeaology...not so much. Worth a shot though.
My story is set around Memphis (Hwt-ka-Ptah) as historically, my Pharaohs happened to be around there. I wouldn't mind substituting Amun for Ra or shoving them together. I think I can work with a discontinuum that's not recognized...
Thanks again! :D
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That greatly helps! I'll take a look and see if I can get my hands on that book...don't suppose you've got an e-format lying around? :P
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