affricates vs. stop+fricativepneSeptember 27 2011, 20:09:54 UTC
You should also consider asking for combinations of stop+fricative, since those contrast in Polish with affricates - the minimal pair I know is "trzysta" (three hundred) vs. "czysta" (clean) - the former has /tʂ̠/ while the latter has /t͡ʂ̠/.
I don't know whether similar contrasts exist for the other affricates (/t͡s d͡z t͡ʂ̠ d͡ʐ̠ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ/ "c dz cz dż ć/ci dź/dzi" vs. /ts dz tʂ̠ dʐ̠ tɕ dʑ/ "ts dz tsz/tż/trz dż/drz tś/tsi/tź/tzi dź/dzi") but if not, people could perhaps pretend anyway, to get you as much data as possible! (Like you asked with mysz vs. myś.) I note that the spellings "dz" and "dż" can, presumably, refer to either affricate or stop+fricative. ("drz" is probably unambiguously stop+fricative, if that spelling is used at all.)
Re: affricates vs. stop+fricativebluebeardSeptember 28 2011, 04:59:08 UTC
yep, I've heard of that. I guess those would help, but I figured I shouldn't ask too much, haha, plus I doubt I'll ever get that far in Polish pronunciation without actually seriously learning the language and living amongst Polish speakers or so. After all, most languages don't have that contrast, so it seems like it'd be very hard to get. D:
Heh, you wouldn't like to hear my diction, but how about a text-to-speech translator? www dot ivona dot com is pretty good and well recorded. The additional advantage - you can choose and change the order of words. I've tried to make a list of juxtaposed words. All they are real words, so t-t-s should manage it (however, some of them are rare so... let's see).
car - czar cel - modzel dżelada - czekolada cień - dzień słoma - złom solić - mozolić swój - zwój Sofia - Zofia szary - żar sztuka - stukać miesić - mierzić kosić - wozić marszruta - śruta kasza - Kasia Staszek - Stasiek
Is it what you need? Or I misunderstood you? Tell me if I can add something.
Actually, the miesić - mierzić pair is tricky. To be the minimal pair, the second word needs to be mierzyć /m'ieʐɨtɕ/. Mierzić is pronounced /m'ierzɨtɕ/ and is an example of a rare situation where the "rz" letters don't constitute an /ʐ/ sound.
The UCLA Phonetics Lab website has a good set of recordings of some Polish near-minimal pairs that show some of the sibilant contrasts you're talking about. You may find that useful:
Well, Quenya, Sindarin, etc. are like, the only conlangs or created langs I know of that I find interesting enough to make me want to learn them - except I won't, since it isn't practical, XD. Well and there's Dothraki as well. But I'll never go beyond dabbling into them. I know of many others, like Lojban and such, but I'm not interested
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Well, Quenya, Sindarin, etc. are like, the only conlangs or created langs I know of that I find interesting enough to make me want to learn them - except I won't, since it isn't practical, XD.
That's an argument I can accept. :) Naturally some languages are more practical than others. And more interesting, too, which is a very subjective thing. I have no great interest in Welsh, for instance, but that's not because I consider Welsh not worth studying. It just doesn't grab me.
It's not that I think conlangs are ridic and useless (mine helps me understands and remember features and stuff that I learn in my lings classes)This is the biggest reason why both creating and learning conlangs is a useful thing. Klingon has taught me an amazing amount about linguistics in general, and it really gave me the impetus to look into the linguistics of a wider range of natural languages that I otherwise wouldn't have tried. Also, because the so-called "canon" corpus of Klingon is limited, working with it has taught me techniques of managing and
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I don't know whether similar contrasts exist for the other affricates (/t͡s d͡z t͡ʂ̠ d͡ʐ̠ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ/ "c dz cz dż ć/ci dź/dzi" vs. /ts dz tʂ̠ dʐ̠ tɕ dʑ/ "ts dz tsz/tż/trz dż/drz tś/tsi/tź/tzi dź/dzi") but if not, people could perhaps pretend anyway, to get you as much data as possible! (Like you asked with mysz vs. myś.) I note that the spellings "dz" and "dż" can, presumably, refer to either affricate or stop+fricative. ("drz" is probably unambiguously stop+fricative, if that spelling is used at all.)
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car - czar
cel - modzel
dżelada - czekolada
cień - dzień
słoma - złom
solić - mozolić
swój - zwój
Sofia - Zofia
szary - żar
sztuka - stukać
miesić - mierzić
kosić - wozić
marszruta - śruta
kasza - Kasia
Staszek - Stasiek
Is it what you need? Or I misunderstood you? Tell me if I can add something.
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Totally agree!!
As for sibilants in other Slavic languages, Czech has an interesting ř sound, but the rest of them are pretty standard.
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http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/polish.html
with the exception of Quenya I think learning a conlang is totally ridiculous and useless
I disagree completely, but aside from that, what's inherent in Quenya that makes it your exception?
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That's an argument I can accept. :) Naturally some languages are more practical than others. And more interesting, too, which is a very subjective thing. I have no great interest in Welsh, for instance, but that's not because I consider Welsh not worth studying. It just doesn't grab me.
It's not that I think conlangs are ridic and useless (mine helps me understands and remember features and stuff that I learn in my lings classes)This is the biggest reason why both creating and learning conlangs is a useful thing. Klingon has taught me an amazing amount about linguistics in general, and it really gave me the impetus to look into the linguistics of a wider range of natural languages that I otherwise wouldn't have tried. Also, because the so-called "canon" corpus of Klingon is limited, working with it has taught me techniques of managing and ( ... )
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