A sociolinguistic and etymological challenge

[doe_witch]

Not to beat a dead horse, but while r_blackcat's post on ableist language was mostly struck through, it's prompted me to make an inquiry about something I've wondered for years. It's arguably the kind of question that belongs on a community more directly centered around issues of privilege, discrimination, etc., but since we have a bunch of etymology-

Comments

[secretsoflife]

i'm a big fan of the douche family of insults - bitch magazine does a good job of explaining why: http://bitchmagazine.org/post/douchebag

[qalanjo]

That explanation only reflects how the author perceives the douche(bag) insult, though.

I think there are a lot of people who do NOT have any idea that douche-ing is harmful to women, so I doubt that that's most peoples' reasoning behind insulting someone with the word "douche". I think most "douche" insulters say it without thinking about what it actually means.

I can imagine that there are a lot of people who do, however, think douching is something "gross" - used for cleaning "dirty" women. That is why I have always felt that douche-related insults just reinforce negative ideas about women.

[eunicemcgee]

I think most "douche" insulters say it without thinking about what it actually means.

I went through all of middle school hearing douche as an insult, before finding out in high school what it meant. I tend to think of douche as being more of a juvenile insult (although that may be completely incorrect), which makes me wonder how many of these insulters even know what it actually means.

[akibare]

I think a lot of these problematic insults are this way - people use them DIRECTLY as an insult without any idea of the shifted analogy meaning that makes those words cause hurt to people with certain concerns, and then by the time they're made aware (or just come to the realization on their own as their vocabulary increases) the direct meaning of the word has seemed harmless to them for years, so they think, what's the harm

Not really an answer

[marence]

Being insulting and pejorative often involves "accusing" the person of being physically or mentally disabled after the person has exhibited behavior that calls to mind the comparison: someone trips, they're 'lame'; someone doesn't understand, they're a 'moron'; someone doesn't listen, they're 'deaf'. Hurtful, but understandable.
The current common usage by teens and young adults of 'gay' and 'retarded' to malign anything, even if it doesn't have anything to do with alternative sexuality or mental acuity bothers me.

I think I'm going to take up using the word 'turdwaffle.'

Re: Not really an answer

[secretsoflife]

i find the insults having to do with mental impairment tend to be really easy to replace if one resolves to be more precise in one's use of language. when thinking about what to say instead of "stupid", i tend to consider what i'm really criticizing - ignorance, incompetence, inconsiderateness, covering up for one's own failings, etc. it's not hard at all.

Re: Not really an answer

[pauamma]

What if the association used in the insult is no longer current? For instance, it used to be that the iodine deficiency causing cretinism was (in France) more common in mountain areas, and the association was enshrined into a phrase, which may have been purely descriptive when coined, but whose meaning shifted to a general insult to someone's intellectual abilities, with no actual implication of cretinism as such. Because of that, and because most people now are likely unaware of the original meaning, I'm unsure whether it should still count as a group-reference-used-as-insult. (Technically, it could be construed as an insult to natives of that area, but even if it is, that's not the original association.)

Re: Not really an answer

[corinn]

Cretinism still occurs, so it is current.

meaning shifted to a general insult to someone's intellectual abilities, with no actual implication of cretinism as such
I question that logic. It comes back to what marence said: Being insulting and pejorative often involves "accusing" the person of being physically or mentally disabled after the person has exhibited behavior that calls to mind the comparison. Even if there were no ill intentions in saying it, and even if one who says it is ignorant of its actual definition, it's still loaded language.

I'm unsure whether it should still count as a group-reference-used-as-insult... but even if it is, that's not the original association.
It comes back to words like "retarded" not originally meant as a pejorative but as a medical classification. Just because the original association was not as an insult, that doesn't mean there is no connection between the original association and the current pejorative association.

[nenena]

I find it amusing though that a person would worry about being considerate when insulting others.

Not really. You should be able to insult a specific person without insulting a whole group of marginalized people at the same time.

Also, insults aren't just for use against people. Like some of the examples that the OP mentioned, you can insult an idea, a trend, or a thing.

[corinn]

Sooo... you wouldn't mind overhearing someone scornfully telling someone else that, "Ugh, you're being such an ahina_gold, seriously, I've never met such an ignorant person"? You wouldn't want them to stop using you as an example of a negative quality?

I view it as collateral damage, with "damage" being the key word.

That blasé dismissal of the issue is So. Annoying.

[nenena]

Adding: I think that English has a whole group of nature-based insults that are fairly baggage-free, too.

Dirtbag. Scum. Scumsucker. Bottom-feeder. Etc.

Most of the examples that I can think of, however, are only used to insult somebody that is deliberately hurting or taking advantage of others, not necessarily being stupid.

[lacunaz]

I'm a fan of "fuckwit" in that case. Pretty much just add "fuck" to any adjective, and Presto! Instant insult. It's like magic!

[nenena]

Oh yes, fuckwit! Argh, how could I have forgotten about that one?

"Fuckwit" is lovely for use in so, so many circumstances.

[lacunaz]

Really, the English language may as well just stop. It's reached its zenith.