Dark fantasy rant

[limyaael]

Dark fantasy rant, crossed with horror fantasy rant. I’ve read some good examples of this, but sooner or later they pick up the same constellation of sins.

Comments

[ursulav]

I honestly don't know if China Mieville's work qualifies as dark fantasy--it's fantasy with a steampunk patina, and it's definitely Not Happy, but I don't know how easily it can be jammed into the category, since when I think "dark fantasy" I usually think something a little more gothic. But I still find myself recommending his work frequently, even if his endings are nothing resembling tidy. (They're sure not stinting on the Bad Things Happening or the moral blurriness though...)

But you've probably read 'em already.

[limyaael]

No, I haven't. I thought he wrote only science fiction, which for me is always second to fantasy in interest, rightfully or not. Thanks for recommending this!

[dawnkiller]

I initially had problems with Perdido Street Station for the same reasons (ie, not liking sci-fi), but as I read I realized that 1) the weird beings wandering around were not aliens, but non-human races indigenous to earth, and 2) all the "science" in the world was actually more like what might have happened if people had stuck to the alchemical approach to science and worked magic in. Same approximate tech-level as either today or the Victorian era, but for drastically different reasons. Once you reconcile that it's not urban or medieval-based fantasy the problem is over. His stuff is just incredibly different than most fantasy around right now, and, while this is initially sort of alienating, it can be fascinating once you work past it

[shati]

I'm not sure if The Winter Prince (by Elizabeth Wein) qualifies as dark fantasy, but I'm guessing it does. It has an extremely tense edge throughout, for one thing. It's also told from the POV of a traditional villain, Medraut (Mordred of Arthurian legend, I believe). He is definitely not stupid, and while he behaves in a villainous manner, it's done in a manner that left me, at least, completely sympathetic to his reasons. There is incest, and betrayal, and jealousy, and torture, all quite tastefully done (I thought).

It's not very horrific -- I think it's considered YA fantasy -- but it is a wonderful, dark little book. (Er. It's not a series. It's actually quite short; it's mainly a string of significant incidents, all revolving around Medraut's relationships with several key characters.)

I'm not sure what you'd think of the ending, and I don't know how to explain without spoiling it (I read the last hundred pages or so with my heart racing), but one thing I wouldn't call it is wimpy. :)

[shati]

Just wanted to add, since you discussed first person recently, that it's written in first person, with a vein of second-person running through it. That is to say, it's written from Medraut to Morgause.

[limyaael]

Thank you for the recommendation. I rarely read Arthurian fantasy, but that's because most of it isn't from an especially interesting viewpoint. I'm interested in Mordred as a character, so this sounds like something I'd enjoy.

Incidentally, have you ever read Firelord? Arthurian fantasy, first-person, from Arthur's point of view. It works, and brings in Morgan le Fay as a Pict, and it's wonderful.

[shati]

I rarely read Arthurian fantasy, but that's because most of it isn't from an especially interesting viewpoint. I'm interested in Mordred as a character, so this sounds like something I'd enjoy.

Don't know if it's your cup of tea (and it's not exactly Dark Fantasy, although of course it's tragedy), but I liked Gilian Bradshaw's take on King Artur a lot. She usually writes (more or less) realistic historical novels, and paints the whole setting very "down to earth", with strong but sparse mythological/religious supernatural effects. The first book, "Hawk of May" is from the POV of a young Gawain -- your not-so-typical runaway teenager wanting to become a knight *bg*, second (less interesting) "Kingdom of Summer" is the POV of Gawain's servant, last (I do not remember the English title) is Gwynhwyfar's POV and quite painful to read because it's beautiful and inescapably going to hell

[limyaael]

Have you read any of Guy Gavriel Kay? I know several people on my FL have, but I keep forgetting which ones (except the ones who are reading him right now). His books have various degrees of tragedy, ranging from the pretty happy (Fionavar Tapestry) to tragedy, joy, and uncertainty (Tigana), to absolute tragedy and joy (Lions of Al-Rassan and the Sarantine Duology).

Also, as a sidenote, I sometimes think that people would be better to just let the story run through to the end and take a long look at what it is before they try and slate it into particular subgenres.*shrug* Depends how they write. I knew one story I wrote would be a dark fantasy because it was a legend of my first world and I had known for ten years that the main character died at the end. I know a story is a parody when I want to invert a fantasy cliché, and it promptly belongs in my parody world, Faean. (Often because it involves royalty, and that's the only one of my worlds with true royalty). I write high fantasy with different characters and in a different style

[limyaael]

I think there are certain genres that are more likely to produce bad writing- feminist fantasy, for example, where the message can overwhelm the storyline; sword and sorcery, where too often the stories are action scenes told clunkily, not with grace and flair; and Mary Sue or teenage wish-fulfillment genre, like a dumbed-down Mercedes Lackey. They can have good books, too, but the authors draw off each other so much that patterns are likely to get picked up and reinforced in bad ways.

Luckily, the majority of that never gets published, I think. Except on the Internet, in which case it can drive me nuts looking for a story that is NOT about the special girl with a pendant and a prophecy who escapes from her mean parents.

[erythros]

I sort of thought that Julian May's Pliocene Exile had some moments of dark fantasy.

That is, what ends up happening to [SPOILER] and [SPOILER] made me wake up with nightmares for weeks. And [SPOILER] himself was a wonderful character, come to think of it, although it was probably too obvious that he was going to No Good End, as he was the only atheist in a society of devout theists.

t¬

[limyaael]

Aaargh, I really do need to find those. I think I had a couple at some point, but they are packed away in the Book Boxes of DOOM from my parents' move, and at this point I don't even remember which ones I had. I might try finding the first one and just seeing if I like it.

[erythros]

Julian May has two wonderful things going for her:

1) Worldbuilding. Sweet mother of fishes, but she's good at this. (Since it takes place on Earth, maybe she ought to get more credit for meticulous research than actual worldbuilding, but all the same, she does a wonderful job of giving the landscape as much attention as it deserves.)
and
2) Dialogue. Some of the things that Aiken Drum says roll around in my head for months, such as "So, who's the badass archangel?" I fell in love at that point.

Sometimes she infodumps, and sometimes she pulls a fast one about characterization that has me blinking in "... dude?" moments, but I think her good points far outweigh the bad. (CRAZY GREGGY EEEE!)

t¬

[troubadour118]

I would call Gregory Maguire's Wicked a good example of dark fantasy, among other things. It achieves several of the points you discuss here in fairly engaging and original ways, specifically in having a) a blurring of the lines between good and evil and b) a not-happy ending. I'd be interested to know what you thought of it, if you've ever read it.

[limyaael]

I haven't read it. Thanks for mentioning it; I don't think I've ever heard of it.

[troubadour118]

:) It's basically a deconstruction of The Wizard of Oz. Maguire reimagines the world of Oz as it might actually have been, magic and politics and religious conflicts and all, and then tells the story of the Wicked Witch of the West from HER perspective. It's dark, sexual, violent, witty, and Fabulous. I recommend it highly.