Question about episode order...

[adamant_turtle]

I've been reading quite a bit lately about this show's episode order being different from how it was originally filmed/intended to be aired. So, my question is this...regardless of the reason, how does the order it's aired affect canon? I can't recall this happening so much in any other series, so I don't know if perhaps there is some sort of "rule

Comments

[bevfank]

I think because most of the episodes are considered "contained" fox feels they can move things however they want and yeah that means that for the most part it makes sense because nothing blatant is said to give it away but it definitely makes more sense to watch in order

[atatteredrose]

Canon has to be the original intended order of the episodes. It's the network, not the creative team, that moves things about. There are also weird reasons for delays (like if an episode deals too closely with a real world event) and while this forces canon to be 'reconstituted,' it's a body of knowledge as the end result of information. Also, the only reason they don't go about saying 'remember yesterday when we had the lawsuit and Loker got demoted?' is because the artistic team assumes that since that all happened last week, we'll know. If FOX airs them backwards, it doesn't change the fact that one event follows the other as surely as if one episode explicitly references another.

Personally, I consider deleted scenes and commentary to be canon - within fandoms they're generally secondary canon, which can be taken or not by individual viewers.

[adamant_turtle]

Hmm...I see your point, but on the other hand, I'd have to assume that many, if not most, viewers might not necessarily have any idea the order they're viewing the episodes in is not the order they were intended to be shown in. Let's say that not everyone goes online onto message boards, or reads the writers' Twitters, or things like that, only watches what's shown. So, they wouldn't know or have any concept of what was originally in the creative team's minds, if you follow.

Re: deleted scenes - I've never been sure about them myself. Some are released, and some are never; so I'm not sure if they can really be considered canon, as what's "leaked" could be totally arbitrary. Or, for all we know, they could sometimes film two different versions of a story ending (like with Lindsay's trial on The Practice) so the scrapped scenes can't possibly be considered canon, as they're directly in contradiction with what actually aired.

Again, who knows? It's making my head hurt to consider, lol

[atatteredrose]

It's a good point that the casual viewer won't know a lot of things. It really comes down to how we define 'canon.' A good analogy might be a television. I'm not exactly sure how it works, and I couldn't build one from scratch, but there are still specific facts and information available such that I could learn how it works and how to build it

[pottermanic]

I think that the re-shuffling of episodes lends for very disconnected character development. For example, we had Honey where at the end we saw how much Cal felt and cared for Gillian and vice versa and suddenly at the end of the next episode, GBH, we have Cal basically telling Gillian that the only person who deserves his full loyalty is that guy who went to jail for him (i can't remember his name, sorry). After the events of Honey i just find i hard to believe that he would say that to her, it doesn't make sense chronologically.

It's just little things like this that make me dislike episode re-ordering, the continuity sucks.

[atatteredrose]

Very true. Except that I don't think the end of GBH makes sense ever, from anything we've ever seen of them, unless there's some sort of betrayal I can't remember right before that?

Ironically, while the misordering is annoying, and possibly fatal to the casual fan (who might give up on the show because of the discontinuity) for anyone upset enough to know about it and debate it, it might be doing good. It promotes further engagement with the show in order to reconstitute what was happening, and this engagement leads to deeper emotional connections with the show, and also a longer attachment, as fans are reluctant to give up on a fandom when they've devoted a good deal of time to it.

[adamant_turtle]

The beauty of this, however, is that Cal is a character who often doesn't tell the truth -- or at least, tells partial truths/lies -- depending on the particulars of the situation, the person he's talking to, etc. So, any discrepancies on this show can often be explained away as "it's just Cal being Cal." Perhaps TPTB are aware of this, which further makes them feel it doesn't matter if they shuffle things around.

[atatteredrose]

"And a philosophy student, I find the discussion of how cannon/fannon is formed and what exactly it is really interesting. Do you suppose anyone anywhere teaches a class on it?"

YES. There are lots of media study programs around actually. And tons of academic books and texts. -Henry Jenkins is one of the gods of the field and especially of fandoms (he started off writing about the Star Trek fandom) and is at USC now, I think. After abandoning his Comparative Media Studies program at MIT :( UofWisconsin is great on it, Queens College too. And then there are bits and pieces everywhere, online forums and sites and conferences devoted to the study... :D

[cybertoothtiger]

You might find the fanthropology comm interesting.

I would agree with your leanings that it is the original plan that should form canon. As for deleted scenes, I think that most of the time, TPTB delete them for a reason. Their place in canon for me depends on the reason they were cut. If they were cut for time, they stand. But if they were cut because TPTB realized the cut material wasn't working or didn't make sense or was somehow OOC, then it becomes official AU, if such a thing exists.

I wonder about official fanfic's role in canon. My main fandom is 24, and there are offical novels that have Jack doing some questionable things. Most of the fandom igores the novels, but I think that is mostly because they are not as well written as fics by the core fandom authors.

Edit for spelling so as not to be talking about large guns.

[adamant_turtle]

Very interesting! Personally, I'm fascinated by discussions like this (i.e. various facets of pop culture) because I think it says an awful lot about people, the time period, etc. But I'm kind of a geek like that, lol

As for deleted scenes, I think that most of the time, TPTB delete them for a reason. Their place in canon for me depends on the reason they were cut. If they were cut for time, they stand. But if they were cut because TPTB realized the cut material wasn't working or didn't make sense or was somehow OOC, then it becomes official AU, if such a thing exists.

I'll play devil's advocate and take it one further...what, then, would you say of material that made it into a preliminary script, but was never actually filmed? Does that, in your mind, fall into the same category as a deleted scene?

[sum_of_one]

I just got in here to put the list with the right order, in case anybody needs it ... so this is it, so far (via LIETOMESCOOP.com)

Pilot (1x1)
Moral Waiver (1x2)
A Perfect Score (1x5)
Love Always (1x4)
Unchained (1x6)
Do No Harm (1x7)
The Best Policy (1x8)
Depraved Heart (1x9)
Life Is Priceless (1x3)
Better Half (1x11)
Undercover (1x10)
Blinded (1x12)
Sacrifice (1x13)

1. Season 2, Episode 1: The Core of It
2. Season 2, Episode 3: Control Factor
3. Season 2, Episode 4: Honey
4. Season 2, Episode 2: Truth or Consequences
5. Season 2, Episode 5: Grievous Bodily Harm
6. Season 2, Episode 7: Black Friday
7. Season 2, Episode 8: Secret Santa
8. Season 2, Episode 9: Fold Equity
9. Season 2, Episode 6: Lack of Candor

[captainmarveljt]

Thanks for this!