saying things better than I can

[libellum]

The comments expressing affirmation and solidarity on my previous entry are very much appreciated. Thankyou to the women who had the courage to post their own experiences of gendered harassment at risk of being told by others that those experiences are insignificant or other than you experienced them; it's a tough thing to do, and I'm grateful to

Comments

[biascut]

Funnily enough, that's actually the context where I first formulated the thought: "You think you're the first person to ask, eg. how come bad things still happen in a world where God is good? You think I"m going to clasp my hands to my chest and the whole faith is going to collapse around me? You think that someone can be serious about their faith, and that never occurred to them?"

There are certain questions which come across as inherently disrespectful, because even if they aren't easy to answer, it would take an idiot not to ask them. Yet because they aren't easily answerable, and nobody can answer them satisfactorily, because they're questions to wrestle with, not to answer, the questioner thinks they've won something.

Mind, I sometimes think Rowan Williams takes it too far. ;)

[friend_of_tofu]

Can I just add that your quoted comment is total brilliance? And your comment above is pretty damn good too - my SO would definitely agree!

Feminism 101? Difficult, so many.

GCSE feminism - well, I started calling myself a feminist at the age of 8 & 1/2, after I read "Happy As A Dead Cat", but I think you might be wanting something a touch more sophisticated - although the book was perfectly good for what it was, and certainly achieved its end.

[taimatsu]

Okay, 'Happy as a Dead Cat' is now on my list of things to read this summer. Thanks :)

[jacinthsong]

There's Feminism 101, for pretty much this purpose :) (scuse if you already know about that - I lose track of who's linked to what)

have posted various at http://del.icio.us/vermilliona/privilege, you can look through and see if you think any are suitable if you have time? some below...

Chris Clarke - How Not TO Be an Asshole (a guide for men)
"Feminists are sexist" (not exactly a privilege-check post, but ties into what biascut said)
Men Who Explain Things
Privilege Is Driving a Smooth Road And Not Even Knowing It

these about race, but transferable:
How To Suppress Discussions of Racism
Can White People Be Trusted?
on facing your bias, owning your prejudice, and allies

Hope some of that is helpful - right, shouldn't really be on lj, so off...

[jacinthsong]

sorry, Feminism 101 has moved! http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

[emperor]

I think there may be a confusion here as to what the original post was for. Was it a place for feminists to talk about how feminism is still relevant today, or was it a place to convince non-feminists (or agnostic feminists) that they should become feminists?

I fear some may have assumed the latter; in which case biascut's comment will just have confused them.

[emperor]

Perhaps I should elaborate a little. If I had an LJ post about how Christianity interacted with workplace ethics, it would drive me up the wall for people to keep saying "but there is no God, what are you on about?" - my post wouldn't be the venue for such comments. If I was trying to persuade people that Christanity was important in workplace ethics, then I'd have to engage with those comments

[biascut]

I'd like to clarify two things here

[kerrypolka]

My impression is that it was a record of mundane sexism to point to if friends/allies say, "but that sort of thing doesn't happen any more!"

Edit: Which I guess is a way of convincing agnostic feminists (like the term) that it is still relevant today.

[oedipamaas49]

"I was despairing of finding any male allies"

Sorry. Of course what you described is awful and sexist, and of course I sympathise. I didn't comment, since I didn't have anything to contribute. But after that comment-thread I can imagine that simple encouragement is an improvement over silence. Yes, sexism is still present, and still harmful, and I'm grateful to you for highlighting it.

[hairyears]

Useful point of view from Biascut! Some of the problem is that people confronted with new ideas try to use analogies as a starting point; that is to say, they try to view this new idea through the lens of prior experience. Which is, of course, somewhat limiting: among other things, the questions people ask can seem bizarre or irrelevant, and it's difficult to give non-condescending answers until you realise what is wrong.

The analogy I'll try out is pre-Newtonian Natural Philosophers confronted with the new idea of Gravity. It had never occurred to them that 'things falling down' was a process to be analysed - in much the same way that fish have no word for water and would be baffled if you told them there's a need to label it and think about it - and the new vocabulary of 'force' and 'mass' and 'weight' was difficult because they had no previous experience or repertoire of analogies to help them get a grasp on the essentials.

Predictably, the responses to Principia were bafflement, expressed as hostility and ridicule. Often Newton and

[xxxlibris]

Just a place-holder to say that the idea of feminist education as a form of Kuhnian paradigm shifts is an interesting one - shall come back to this after dinner...

[athenemiranda]

It had never occurred to them that 'things falling down' was a process to be analysed

Not strictly true, if you look at Aristotle or Galileo. But hey. :P