[writing meta] Point of View, Characterization, and Narration

[lassarina]

I was discussing fic with first_seventhe today, and something occurred to me that I've been wanting to talk about for a while, if only to get it out of my own head. It has to do with writing and point of view, and the literary tropes that I tend to employ when I'm writing, whether consciously or not.

Comments

[first_seventhe]

Eeeee thinky thoughts ~~ <3

(More from me later, as I am doing ff_p)

[lassarina]

you are a darling. ILU. ♥

[sister_coyote]

Interesting topic!

I'm also not a fan of third-omniscient. There are some authors who pull it off -- mostly, I think, because I am forgiving of it in older works (Victorian novels, say, were full of omniscient) and so stories that play deliberately on older tropes get away with it (Steven Brust's Paarfi romances, starting with The Phoenix Guards, are a very, very funny and very deliberate pastiche of Dumas' Three Musketeers books -- but then, the voice of the book is almost not so much third-omniscient as it is the voice of a POV character who happens to be looking back on the story, so the line blurs). I enjoy reading first person, assuming I like the protagonist

[lassarina]

RE: everything FF6, OH GOD YES so much agreement. Yes. You have them so spot-on and it makes me filled with glee.

I've been plowing slowly through Phoenix Guards and the third-omniscient was annoying the HELL out of me, but your comment on it being a pastiche casts it in a different light, and I think I might enjoy it more when I get back to it. Thanks!

[sister_coyote]

It helps a lot to think of Phoenix Guards not as third-omniscient but as tight-third from the POV of the historian Paarfi. He's at least as much of a character unto himself as any of the others. And he's kind of snarky, if you pay attention to the comparative ways he describes things.

That isn't to say I think you'd necessarily like it, but reading it that way made it very funny indeed for me.

[lassarina]

Yeah, I was definitely picking up on the snark. :)

[rhapsody11]

Oh you know as I was reading it and am currently re-reading the first Kushiel trilogy, I realised that Carey is writing 1st pov, but in an omniscient kinda way. I realised that (now in the 2nd book) that she drops phrases like that where Phedre looks back. I think its very innovative and I just love her immensely. Another heroine of mine is Marion Zimmer Bradley who with her Mists if Avalon weaves in those 1st pov at the start of new beginnings, but - I need to re-read that - 3rd pov limited. But what works so well is that she picks a very intriguing pov to pull it off. Then thinking of Tom Clancy (jeez that has been a while) or Frederick Forsythe: those are action packed thrillers where not so much the character's emotions are central but the events. Those are so much better for 3rd pov omniscient or limited. But since I personally love to crawl under the skin of my character I almost naturally write 1st pov. Once I realise that a store will be event or action driven, I re-write to 3rd pov because I will try to cover as much as I can

[lassarina]

Hey, rambling is why I make these posts. XD

Mostly I have a ridiculous abiding love for themes of honour and fall from grace. Which. Kind of explains why I love Kain so much.

[unclehyena]

Well... At last I have some perspective on your reaction to my "Rehoboam Kane" fragment, a couple of years ago.

I remain mystified by the intensity of your hostility to omniscient third; it does allow for some very bad habits, but it is also the fundamental, basic form of story telling, and it deserves more respect than you give it.

As to use of an unreliable narrator in any kind of third person writing... This is a dangerous technique. The probability that the reader will interpret misinformation on the part of the narrator as a simple mistake by the writer if FAR too high to make the technique worthwhile.

On the other hand, narrative trickery is for the writer's amusement, and there is no point in not indulging one's self as long as doing so does not cripple the story. The chance of any given reader picking up on a particular bit of writerly finesse in extremely low, and the chance that whatever they do notice will be misinterpreted is better than even.

Uncle Hyena

[lassarina]

I think that third-person omniscient gets in the way of what I want from a story, which is to understand a character inside and out. Part of that understanding comes from their narrative voice and their thoughts, and I think that having someone else's voice and thoughts intrude upon that dilutes my understanding of the character in question.

You can do some interesting things with omniscient third, but I prefer not to have a narrator who is distant from the action, because I personally do not want to be distant from the action. Also, switching viewpoints in the middle of the scene infuriates me. I don't have a problem with, say, George R. R. Martin's habit of writing each chapter from a different perspective; that's actually pretty awesome, because it lets me get inside multiple people's heads without blurring the lines between those people; each switch is clearly demarcated by a chapter break.

Another example would be Juliet E. McKenna's Tales of Einarinn, where the majority of the story is told in first-person. The main plot