There are infinitely more women who are well drawn than there used to be...especially in books, but also in movies. Where they are not, I think it is important to look at the men in the same movies. They are often just as unrealistic
( ... )
I don't agree with your maths, but I appreciate the sentiment. There are more good female characters than there used to be... but they still seem to be a small proportion in genre movies
( ... )
I like William Gibson's girls. My favourite book of his is Idoru, which has a genuine heroine. I'm not going to use the word realistic, because she has a psi power, and I like my spec fic to be unrealistic. But she is a genuine female character - She gets tired, she gets jet lag and can't function very well... She chooses her battles wisely, and doesn't always default to the violent option. She reacts emotionally to horrible things.
I think that girliejones was compiling a list of specific with awesome Female character in... Do you want me to dig about and see if I can find it?
Jones is really good for this stuff. So is cassiphone, who is Tansy Rayner Roberts - "good female characters" is one of Tansy's basic requirements from a work of fiction. Not unreasonably.
There's a whole bunch of things like this that you don't realise until you start looking for them - but they're everywhere.
Google "women in refrigerators", for example, which is a term for the passive, threatened, useless role women play in superhero comics.
For my part, I grew up with the vague assumption that boys liked boy stuff, which was for boys, and girls liked girl stuff, which was for girls. The interesting female characters that weren't in the boy stuff were notionally in the girl stuff.
Obviously, the reality is that people like fun and interesting stuff. :)
I read the original woman in refrigerator comic book when it first came out, (Green Lantern), and it annoyed me because up until that time the character had been a useful and genre savvy ally. I didn't particularly see that event as sexist at the time, because that particular scene was shocking and a little bit different, and led to character development. It was only later when others made the connection that I saw it as well. In my mind, I think, if a woman was dead, she wasn't being portrayed as helpless and constantly needing rescuing. She was dead. In hindsight I can see that the context of that death is quite important, and is a continual theme that spurs the male lead to revenge. Sigh.
(a) real and horrible, and (b) an innocent and unproblematic outcome of a more serious issue - who we tell our stories about.
Check it: We add emotional oomph to our stories by putting important characters at risk and/or doing them harm. The more risk, and the more important, the more oomph. In an actiony genre, the _most_ important character needs to stay physically able, for story purposes. The next most important character is often the partner or romantic lead. Hence - "it's curtains for Mary Jane!"
For evidence and counterexample, look at Alias, and the many many horrible things that happen to her boy-and-other-male-friends.
Oh, and also - romantic leads are easy to threaten cos (as noted) they play no actual role in the fiction.
This has always been a problem in SF and Fantasy and it pisses me off even more when the author is female - its like the tropes say the female character can either be helpless love interest or evil character who uses her sexuality to get what they want.
Name me one SF or Fantasy book with an ugly evil protagonist?
It's the same in role playing - I've played way way to many games where the token female character is just the love interest - and if she needs a cathartic plot point - she has been raped. It's horrible to roleplay that.
I'm trying to think of some good SF/Fantasy Fic - umm Robin Hobb does ok.
In the Soldier Son series - the main character has an issue with being fat and societies rejection of that - it is really uncomfortable to read - but she gets it right.
But really - I don't read much SF/Fantasy these days - I find my crime fiction and murder mysteries to be better at character development.
I can ignore Buffy's high-heeled boots, but yes... she does. Good thing she has a Slayer's gift for perfect balance.
I think it must be frustrating for roleplaying women that there aren't a good number of fully realised women in convention modules.
I do my best to write fully realised women into my games. I'd never write them in to just be a love interest.
I'll admit that I've written a rape into a character for one of my games, and also for a game I helped a female GM write... In both cases, it wasn't the rape itself that was most important, but the meaning that those characters applied to that event. (Both were a little unusual, I think.)
Buffy I can forgive, because the heels don't slow her down. (In fact, within the tropes of the Buffy-verse, I'd argue that Buffy would be less effective in sensible shoes.)
But Teyla in Stargate Atlantis... There is this one episode where she gets disguised as a wraith queen. Normally, Teyla is a pleasure to watch in action scenes - quick, poised, strong, tough. She moves like she means it, actress and character. But this one episode, she was slow, awkward and ungainly. I had to pause the DVD to confirm my suspicion of the problem. The costume department had put her in boots with ridiculously high, chunky heels, and the actress could barely move for risk of falling. It was just dumb.
Knee jerk reaction: ok, the writers of most science fiction have no clue about women. But - aren't women supposed to be half the population? Why aren't they writing believable female characters?
Silghtly more considered reaction: ok, female writers I like who also write sci fi - well, Anne McCaffrey immediately comes to mind. So male characters - in her fantasy, no probs: female and male characters on Pern are equally interesting. In her sci fi (and I'm including the first 2 pern novels here) - dear Lord the guys are wet! Utterly spineless.
Posit - it's harder to write for the opposite gender in scifi, as both history and personal experience are of limited use. Mind you, given how rapidly sci-fi dates (the decade in which a sci-fi story is written is normally obvious), I suspect that this is sympomatic of more serious issues in the genre.
I don't read Mike as saying it's all men at fault (if he is he should stop). But the imbalance is there, and stark.
I really like your Posit. I'd add that I think it's really hard to write for an y unfamiliar* role in any genre - you should see how fake and unconvincing my Merovingian Kings are - It's only with gender that we're *always* reviewed by an expert in the role we're writing for.
*Which is not saying women and men aren't familiar to each other.
...now, I *want* to see how fake and unconvincing your Merovingian Kings are!
Although, I admit I get annoyed with 'rulers' in fantasy who are desperately worried about what people think of them. A ruler is going to be constantly buttered up by fawning lickspittles, so overconfidence is going to be the norm. The better rulers will have purged the lickspittles - requiring the ability to take decisive action.
As a guess though, since the entertainers of the era would be entertaining the nobility, any period piece should be how they'd *want* to be seen - so would be believable, if biased.
Maybe we should take a closer look at Shakespeare...[shrugs] Generally good advice, anyway.
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My favourite book of his is Idoru, which has a genuine heroine.
I'm not going to use the word realistic, because she has a psi power, and I like my spec fic to be unrealistic.
But she is a genuine female character - She gets tired, she gets jet lag and can't function very well... She chooses her battles wisely, and doesn't always default to the violent option. She reacts emotionally to horrible things.
I think that girliejones was compiling a list of specific with awesome Female character in... Do you want me to dig about and see if I can find it?
Reply
Reply
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http://girliejones.livejournal.com/tag/feminism
http://girliejones.livejournal.com/tag/female%20writers
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Google "women in refrigerators", for example, which is a term for the passive, threatened, useless role women play in superhero comics.
For my part, I grew up with the vague assumption that boys liked boy stuff, which was for boys, and girls liked girl stuff, which was for girls. The interesting female characters that weren't in the boy stuff were notionally in the girl stuff.
Obviously, the reality is that people like fun and interesting stuff. :)
Reply
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The original site I think, with lots of commentary from creators in the field.
Reply
The 'women in refrigerators' thing is both
(a) real and horrible, and
(b) an innocent and unproblematic outcome of a more serious issue - who we tell our stories about.
Check it:
We add emotional oomph to our stories by putting important characters at risk and/or doing them harm.
The more risk, and the more important, the more oomph.
In an actiony genre, the _most_ important character needs to stay physically able, for story purposes.
The next most important character is often the partner or romantic lead.
Hence - "it's curtains for Mary Jane!"
For evidence and counterexample, look at Alias, and the many many horrible things that happen to her boy-and-other-male-friends.
Oh, and also - romantic leads are easy to threaten cos (as noted) they play no actual role in the fiction.
Reply
This has always been a problem in SF and Fantasy and it pisses me off even more when the author is female - its like the tropes say the female character can either be helpless love interest or evil character who uses her sexuality to get what they want.
Name me one SF or Fantasy book with an ugly evil protagonist?
It's the same in role playing - I've played way way to many games where the token female character is just the love interest - and if she needs a cathartic plot point - she has been raped. It's horrible to roleplay that.
I'm trying to think of some good SF/Fantasy Fic - umm Robin Hobb does ok.
In the Soldier Son series - the main character has an issue with being fat and societies rejection of that - it is really uncomfortable to read - but she gets it right.
But really - I don't read much SF/Fantasy these days - I find my crime fiction and murder mysteries to be better at character development.
Reply
I think it must be frustrating for roleplaying women that there aren't a good number of fully realised women in convention modules.
I do my best to write fully realised women into my games. I'd never write them in to just be a love interest.
I'll admit that I've written a rape into a character for one of my games, and also for a game I helped a female GM write... In both cases, it wasn't the rape itself that was most important, but the meaning that those characters applied to that event. (Both were a little unusual, I think.)
Reply
Buffy I can forgive, because the heels don't slow her down. (In fact, within the tropes of the Buffy-verse, I'd argue that Buffy would be less effective in sensible shoes.)
But Teyla in Stargate Atlantis... There is this one episode where she gets disguised as a wraith queen. Normally, Teyla is a pleasure to watch in action scenes - quick, poised, strong, tough. She moves like she means it, actress and character. But this one episode, she was slow, awkward and ungainly. I had to pause the DVD to confirm my suspicion of the problem. The costume department had put her in boots with ridiculously high, chunky heels, and the actress could barely move for risk of falling. It was just dumb.
Reply
Silghtly more considered reaction: ok, female writers I like who also write sci fi - well, Anne McCaffrey immediately comes to mind. So male characters - in her fantasy, no probs: female and male characters on Pern are equally interesting. In her sci fi (and I'm including the first 2 pern novels here) - dear Lord the guys are wet! Utterly spineless.
Posit - it's harder to write for the opposite gender in scifi, as both history and personal experience are of limited use. Mind you, given how rapidly sci-fi dates (the decade in which a sci-fi story is written is normally obvious), I suspect that this is sympomatic of more serious issues in the genre.
Reply
I really like your Posit. I'd add that I think it's really hard to write for an y unfamiliar* role in any genre - you should see how fake and unconvincing my Merovingian Kings are - It's only with gender that we're *always* reviewed by an expert in the role we're writing for.
*Which is not saying women and men aren't familiar to each other.
Reply
Reply
Although, I admit I get annoyed with 'rulers' in fantasy who are desperately worried about what people think of them. A ruler is going to be constantly buttered up by fawning lickspittles, so overconfidence is going to be the norm. The better rulers will have purged the lickspittles - requiring the ability to take decisive action.
As a guess though, since the entertainers of the era would be entertaining the nobility, any period piece should be how they'd *want* to be seen - so would be believable, if biased.
Maybe we should take a closer look at Shakespeare...[shrugs] Generally good advice, anyway.
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