Oh, Diana Gabaldon, NO!

[kattahj]

My apartment is unusually full of new books read and unread, both bought ones and library ones. This is fun. Latest one I finished was Lord John and the Brotherhood and the Blade. Fun story, John lovely as always, the plot better and plottier than the Outlander series (yay!) though the characters somewhat flatter (nay!) - with exception for our

Comments

[floridalee]

I see what you are saying, but... eh. I enjoyed it, and I absolutely loved the scene between Jamie and John. I felt that it was all very in-character for Jamie, with his history, and with the time period, and with the way some homophobic people think.

I couldn't believe that John told Jamie that he would make him scream. I would have to re-read to figure out my feeling on THAT subject, and the whole dominance issue.

[kattahj]

I felt that it was all very in-character for Jamie, with his history, and with the time period, and with the way some homophobic people think.

I get why he's being an idiot, but that doesn't stop me from thinking he is being an idiot. *g* And of course this is one area where even Claire's and Brianna's powers of anachronism haven't worked - I was quite relieved not to have them in the book going "ew, gay people." Like I said in the post, it's a helluva lot easier to take from Jamie.

I couldn't believe that John told Jamie that he would make him scream. I would have to re-read to figure out my feeling on THAT subject, and the whole dominance issue.

In a sense, I quite liked that he did, because John has been too damned starry-eyed over Jamie so far. So I'm kind of torn - on one hand, it amuses me that Diana makes John a dom, which isn't what you'd expect, but OTOH I really don't like the "RAWR I POSSESS YOU WITH THE POWER OF MY PEEN" attitude in general.

[floridalee]

oh - I think I missed the essence of your feeling on the matter. We totally agree. John being a top seemed totally right to me. And Jamie, if he were gay, would totally be a bottom. Because that's how my brain works.

[artaxastra]

I see what you mean, but I didn't have a problem with it. I thought John's attitudes were in period. That's very much the vibe of the time, and I thought she did a good job of pulling off giving him the attitude that topping=dominating which is appropriate to the period, rather than giving him anachronistic modern views. Having done a good bit of research in the 18th century for my own work, I appreciated that she had done her homework.

John and Jamie is a mess -- they are both men of their time and do in fact believe that sex is something one person does to another. Jamie has his own demons and is cruel to John, and John says the absolutely worst thing. I can see why both of them did it, and I wince at it all the same.

[kattahj]

Having done a good bit of research in the 18th century for my own work, I appreciated that she had done her homework.

Meh, I guess my problem is that I don't see the dom thing as a view as much as a fact. I mean, people thinking that the sun circled the earth didn't make it true, and while sexual behaviour isn't as unchanging as astronomy, the categories people create are still not necessarily true to actual behaviour. That is to say, thinking that the top should be the dom is not the same thing as the top actually being the dom.

Of course, it could be argued that at least Jamie isn't actually a dom but only thinks he is. I dunno. I probably hadn't reacted if I hadn't already been fed up by the bisexual comment, which John based on observed behaviour rather than just an idea. Plus that I'm already wary of DG's sexual politics since the Outlander series.

[mofic]

I've never read (or heard of) this author, but I think how views of sex and sexuality have differed in different times and places is really interesting. And I think the thing about sex is that it mostly goes on in private, so the conventional wisdom on how it's viewed is never all there is to it. Just as there were many women who didn't relate to butch/femme when that was normative (including many who conformed to the standards of their community in their observable behavior) I think we can assume that at times and places where top=dominant was considered the standard it was not a view shared by all.

[kattahj]

Yes, that's more or less what I was going for. Thanks for articulating it so well!

I mean, a modern example would be that having people serve you is seen as a dom activity while being sexually passive is seen as a sub activity, while I'm just really fucking lazy and enjoy both those things. :-)

[hibernate]

Haven't read Gabaldon, I just wanted to sneak in and say that your icon is fantastic! That is like the story of my life. :D

[kattahj]

*g* Thanks! I think my childhood was very affected by having that show and the Shadow series running pretty much back-to-back. "Wait, you mean dressing up in boys' clothes and getting involved in triangles is not expected behaviour?"

[isagel]

Hee! Swedish Television Children's Shows Turned Us Bi and Polyamorous! Can we somehow sue SVT? Or, you know, write them a thank you note?

[kattahj]

I think a thank you note would be in order, definitely. :-)

[fangirljen]

Seeing what you have here makes me glad that I did say what I said to a customer who was considering buying the first book in John's series for her 80 year old friend who isn't quite open-minded. It was weird to caution the woman about my now ten year old memory of there being homosexual subtext around John, though, I gotta say. I mean, I love the slash. But I just got a vibe from this woman that her friend wouldn't appreciate it. And when I mentioned there was the subtext, her eyes widened. Definitely hit a mark.

But damn. The line John says to Jamie about making him scream? That made me giggle. I think the line could be taken the way you've suggested, too, but John knew exactly who he was saying it to. I take it, at least partially, as a teasing, flirtatious jab. It seems my brain is now making John look like Capt. Harkness. Haha. Very funny, brain.

[kattahj]

But I just got a vibe from this woman that her friend wouldn't appreciate it. And when I mentioned there was the subtext, her eyes widened. Definitely hit a mark.

There's TEXT. Not as texty as the het sex in the Outlander series, and certainly not as romantic, but there are "pricks" pretty much all over the place. (I really really don't find that word erotic. But then, naming the genitals is always hard. I still think "zoob" is the best one I've used so far, and of course only Sayid can get away with that. *g*)

But damn. The line John says to Jamie about making him scream? That made me giggle. I think the line could be taken the way you've suggested, too, but John knew exactly who he was saying it to.

John didn't know that Jamie had been raped, though. He figured it out when Jamie tried to punch his lights out for saying that line