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[kattahj]

A few days ago, jennyo had a smart entry about how superheroes have an obligation to society, and how Buffy, Angel and company fail to live up to that obligation. I left a reply, rozk answered my reply and was bitched out by me (poor woman

Comments

[zortified]

Very nice. I like this, and agree with you - the protagonists in Jossverse rarely are heroes. They sometimes do heroic things - although the first examples that come to mind are all secondary characters like Xander or Wesley. I'm not even convinced Buffy's leap into the void was heroic because she did it to save one person -- and had up to that point been willing to let the world get destroyed in order to save that one person.

Anyhow, just saying "what you said!" ;-)

[kattahj]

*grin* Thanks. I'm not sure I added anything sensible to the discussion - Jenny's "social contract" thing was so smart, but as always, I have to keep talking to keep thinking. :-)

And yeah, I didn't find Buffy's "gift" very heroic. If Dawn had gone through with it, on the other hand...

[miggy]

Ooh, thanks for including the Secret Service bit. I got in an argument last year with someone who was outraged that I thought the Scoobs should have destroyed the Box of Gavrok and taken their chances on rescuing Willow, rather than saving Willow for sure and taking the risk with tens of thousands of lives. Apparently, in his view, if you're willing to sacrifice a friend, you're not a good person.

I nearly brought up 24 to use different characters, and asked whether Jack would be a hero if he handed over poison gas that'd be unleashed in a full football stadium. The most important thing would be getting Kim back safely, right? Screw those 65,000 fans! Besides, he's good at his job, he'd (probably) be able to stop everything in time!

But I didn't, because by that point, I'd realized that it was a futile conversation. He and I just had very different definitions of "hero." Even as I said that yes, what he was suggesting was understandable and human but not heroic, he was still outraged. It's nice to see someone else whose definition

[kattahj]

I got in an argument last year with someone who was outraged that I thought the Scoobs should have destroyed the Box of Gavrok and taken their chances on rescuing Willow, rather than saving Willow for sure and taking the risk with tens of thousands of lives.

And not only a risk - people *did* die on Graduation day, and as far as I know neither Buffy nor anyone else has expressed any guilt over that. So yeah, sacrificing a friend isn't a very nice thing, but there has to be a point where you go "we don't negotiate with terrorists."

...And now it looks like I've used yet another metaphor from the political realm of West Wing... I think it's useful because it's more down to earth - none of us are ever going to face a demon, after all. :-)

[illmantrim]

I think yer very right about this very little in the Jossverse was heroic when they showed it.
heroism is about just doing it, no matter how afraid or how worried you are, just acting.

[kattahj]

Yeah. If you're going to try and weasel out of it every time the danger becomes imminent, you're in the wrong business. :-)

I have nothing to say

[greenet]

Except a vague, mildly embarrassed mutter that I still kinda fangirl the Phantom(s). I like the twins. Ahem.

And, I don´t think Buffy or Angel is so much about heroism as it´s about metaphors for growing up and changing. I was about to say ´taking responsibility for yourself´ until I realised that none of them really do because they don´t really have to. Angel, maybe, Buffy, not so much.

And I just had an exam and make even less sense than usual, sorry. *grins* Just wanted to say, Yay Phantom!

Re: I have nothing to say

[kattahj]

I still kinda fangirl the Phantom(s).And, I don´t think Buffy or Angel is so much about heroism as it´s about metaphors for growing up and changing.

Well, it was. And then it was "there's only one thing more powerful in evil in this world, and that's us".

I liked the show a lot better when it was all about high school...