World Fantasy Con: Native American Spirits

[kate_nepveu]

Description:

Native American Spirits.
How are they different from transplanted European ghosts?
Linda Donohue, Lawrence Connolly (m), Laura Ann Hill, Adam Niswander

Joseph Bruchac (bio) was added when the moderator spotted him in the front row and asked him to join them, which is a damn good thing because otherwise the panel on Native American

Comments

[swan_tower]

Thanks for the notes. I missed this panel (I missed most of the panels), but I'm very glad to hear the moderator spotted and called up Bruchac. Now I'm looking forward even more to reading his book.

[kate_nepveu]

Glad to be of help, and hi!

[smillaraaq]

Thanks very much for this report.

Re: According to the Cherokee [*],...[*] He gave names for all the tribes in their own languages, but I wasn't able to transcribe them and I'm not sure which one he gave here.

The term he used there was likely Tsalagi.

I'm curious, in the section on Coyote, did anyone bring up any of the trickster/clown figures found in other nations -- Rabbit, Raven, Mudheads? They fill similar roles at times, but it often seems to me like Coyote is the only one who's gotten much outside attention.

Then there are things that are totally unexplainable but just there, "we know they're there, and we do our best to avoid being affected by them."

I am reminded of the final line of Sherman Alexie's The Sasquatch Poems:

When I asked the Indian elder, she said with a smile
"I don't know if I believe in Sasquatch, but he sure do stink."

If you're interested in contemporary ghost/supernatural tales from a specific tradition, for Seneca material I'd recommend Duce Bowen's books.

because otherwise the panel on Native

[kate_nepveu]

Re: Coyote & other figures, no, but that was in response to a specific question about Coyote (that I didn't include in the report, because it was frankly kind of embarrassing).

Thanks for the rec, and I share the headdesking.

[smillaraaq]

Heh, now I'm curious just how goofy the question was. ;)

[kate_nepveu]

It was "Coyote is the creator in some cultures, in others he doesn't seem to be able to make good decisions, which is he really?"

Which, to borrow a reaction from Pratchett's latest, is _the wrong type of question_.

[cofax7]

I have to say that at the World Fantasy Con, it floors me that it didn't occur to anyone to invite a Native American to sit on the panel until the last moment.

wtf?

[kate_nepveu]

I KNOW.

I went through the con in a state of bafflement at much of the programming.

[coffeeandink]

I am curious about this. I heard some pre-con rumbles about the programming.

[kate_nepveu]

Oh, well, besides what I said in the general report, and the venting to come about another panel, Chad had a couple of comments. The one I remember now is the Best Fantasy Worlds panel: the program lists Colin Harvey, Kathleen Woodbury (m), Delia Sherman, Joel Champetier, and Charlaine Harris. Harris, at least, doesn't write secondary world fantasy; and the panel was mostly about which worlds would be most comfortable, which, enh. Where was Scott Lynch or someone else who did worldbuilding for the sheer joy of it?

[smillaraaq]

Forgot to add...sorry, cold meds have left me pretty fuzzy-headed!

...his position, & that of many writers who are American Indian, is that they have no objection to non-American Indians writing about the topics, as long as they have: information, knowledge, connection, and in some cases permission. Unfortunately he didn't expand on this.I'm guessing it's the last bit that you would've liked to see expanded on, since the information and knowledge caveats are pretty basic -- nobody likes to see things that are badly-researched and inaccurate, and those issues are particularly vexing when you're dealing with cultures that are subject to so much stereotyping. What he might have been aiming at, with the connection-and-permission angle, is something that's a persistent disconnect between Western and traditional native attitudes towards knowledge. The typical Western paradigm is that it is generally a good thing for knowledge to be more or less freely available -- in terms of formal education there may be prerequisites, tests that you

[kate_nepveu]

Permission I got, but connection I could think of a couple of different things it could've been, so thanks for the clarification.

[smillaraaq]

That's just an educated guess, not trying to presume to speak in his place of course! There are things that are meant to be directly, personally taught, so getting them via secondary sources is just...not done? At least, not done properly? There should be a dialogue and relationship built up beyond the "oh, hi, would you terribly mind if I wrote about this?" level of just asking permission. And on a simpler level, well, if you're going to try to write about Indians, it surely can't hurt to actually get to know some first. ;)

[kate_nepveu]

Well, as an educated guess, it still makes sense to me, so thanks. =>

(Similarly: at a later panel, Ekaterina Sedia talked about the problem of taking stuff out of context, specifically using the example of Baba Yaga which, she said, no-one gets right because it's just being used piecemeal.)

[orzelc]

When he was doing repatriation work, some of the bones were in a Tupperware container, which weighed maybe 3 pounds, but only women could carry it! Until they began singing a song to honor it. So American Indian spirits can be responsive in way that European ghosts may not often be. For instance, many ghosts in Saratoga Springs are on a loop and aren't going anywhere.

He also told a story about a meeting involving a number of tribes and some museum officials, talking about repatriation of bones, at which all but one of the tribes said they wanted the bones from their land back. One tribe, though (I think it may have been the Navaho, but I'm not sure), had a very strong tradition of disturbed spirits becoming mischevious, and said "No, no-- you keep them. Now that you've disturbed them, you can have them. Whatever you do, keep them far away from us."

[kate_nepveu]

Is that what it was? I must not have heard it properly. Thanks.

[smillaraaq]

That does sound like something that might have been related to Dine' chindi traditions, although my understanding is that those ghosts are actively dangerous, not just prankish.

[kate_nepveu]

My notes said "or deadly", but don't contain further identifying information.