Enmity Testing (Part I)

[kanican]

Overview

In the post ' Modeling Enmity', I went over a possible "ball-park" method of looking at enmity in this game which was simple, easy to understand, and plausible for a good number of situations seen in the game.  While easier to understand, and I think a better model to base things on than the JP Wiki version of things, it is still not what

Comments

[anonymous]

distance doesn't matter until you reach 30' i think that's the point at which you generate no enmity, very convenient as a bst for example, or a rdm using convert. feel free to check that value, it's obviously very easy to test.

there are some tests you can do with distance.dll and zones with plenty of space to run that show what causes you to lose hate on a pulled mob. beware of doing it on scent tracking mobs in zones with water you can cross.

i've always attributed 1 point of hypothetical enmity to the first player to act on the mob (ie. the puller) but thinking about it more carefully i'd probably give it a slightly higher value.

good job!

ciz.

[kanican]

The hate you get from pulling is a lot stronger than the bare minimum. At this point in time, I would be very careful to avoid any type of quantitative number though. The reason other models really fail thus far is that they jump to throwing out numbers when they cannot verify its accuracy.

Numbers are nice to think about but they are hard to come by. I don't want to make that type of mistake so I don't want assign any type of number yet. There are ways to get an accurate number I think but you have to go through the basic testing first in order to establish enough basic prinicples.

[anonymous]

assigning values is just something i've done for convenience, if i was developing a framework like you are i would attempt to quantify it in terms of a base action (ie. ratios like 2 dispels = 1 provoke) and of course this is beyond the scope of what you are currently testing.
i absolutely understand you have to take it slowly to build a good model.

the deaggro thing was just in response to an above comment, it's not even relevant to enmity because you can't use it unless doing some solo where you deaggro the mob for very short downtime during the fight (preventing regen with DoT).
the distance at which you generate no enmity has to be suffixed to "distance doesn't matter" though for accuracy.

[kanican]

I also don't intend to mess with distance and deaggroing for awhile. The stuff I'll go over is probably going to be really basic and miss a lot of 'no brainer' things. This is because they are hard to prove in trial, but easy to see ancedotally.

[basster]

ZOMG naked TaruTarus! j/k Good Job on your tests. Nice to read your LJ!

[anonymous]

Love the post and what you're doing here. I hope one day I can refer people to this post to disprove their wrong beliefs about enmity and hate control =).

I do have one question though, and I'm not a mage, so I have less experience with this:

"- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage"

I always thought that when your stoneskin took damage, you lost enmity just the same as if you were hit for that much damage. I could easily be wrong, but what do those monsters hit you for without the stoneskin and phalanx?

Oh and when you do build up off of these basic ideas, could you address whether or not you lose more hate depending on how much enmity you are wearing when you take hit? e.g. You take a 300 dmg hit when you're wearing like +20 enmity vs. taking a 300 dmg hit wearing +0 enmity?

Thanks!

[kanican]

It actually usually does 0 damage with no gear, no phalanx2, and no stoneskin on (talking about tiny mandragoras and bumblebees). If you go to like river crabs in Sarutabaruta, those do actually do 1-2 damage sometimes. 0 damage is just 0 damage though I'm pretty sure. It's not hard to test this out later on if people have qualms over it.

I'm not really going to bother with damage or enmity +/- gear at this point. I have a pretty solid idea on what to test first, and those 2 are near the end I think. Things will be a lot more clear next post I'm pretty sure, when things that aren't intuitive are proven/explained.

CHR

[anonymous]

Does CHR affect hate decay in any way?

[anonymous]

This is an absolutely amazing post; borderline thesis material! Thank you, so much. I was wondering, as a tank, what the most effective way to gain hate is? I tank nin/drk, and I noticed that most of the spells we use for hate are CE. Would it be beneficial to use more spells with VE as well to create a combination of the two? Also, is there a way to determine how much hate is lost with every point of damage taken?

I have always been told nin/drk pulls more hate because of souleater's ability to reach the hate cap so quickly-not to mention the hate available to PLD co-tanks-but after reading this, I'm not sure nin/drk would pull more hate then nin/rdm. How much hate can souleater pull? How much hate does one unit of damage dealt deal under normal circumstances? Does magic damage pull more/less hate?