Actually, the only real comment I have on these two episodes is that any goodwill I had more or less been building toward Angel was pretty much zapped by the dream sequence -- and I think we're supposed to see it as selfish and rather sexist. But the one line that really fills me with gnawing rage is when Wesley says he's sorry for, and Angel says (and for once I checked the transcript on this) "it's the first time I ever heard you apologize about anything").
. . .
OMGWTF????? I even try to ignore the fact that Wesley basically spent the first 3 years of canon apologizing for having the nerve to exist . . .let's even say that the irony's unintentional, that the writers just weren't thinking about that
( ... )
Wesley's perfect day would probably involve some kind of scenario in which he pretty much has sex with everybody -- at the very least Fred, Lilah, Angel, Angelus and Gunn -- and OMGEVERYBODYWHOWAZEVERMEAN2HIMSAYSTHEYARESORRY!!!!
Also, good old Roger would do more than that. He'd be utterly humiliated by Wesley in chess. Same for Giles and Quentin Travers. They'd totally quote things wrong in Latin as well.*g* But yes. Am amused by you listing Fred, Lilah, Angel, Angelus (agreed, btw, that he'd want the sex both with the souled and the soulless version) and Gunn but not Cordelia - have I been getting to you?
layering it in with the perhaps unintentional implication that Angel doesn't remember/didn't pay attention to pre-betrayal Wesley
Err, I never saw that implied at all, given that Angel's version of Wesley both in Deep Down and here IS pre-betrayal Wesley, complete with glasses. (Wesley doesn't wear these anywhere outside of Angel's head in the last two seasons.) First and early second season Wesley, definitely, and I always
( ... )
Am amused by you listing Fred, Lilah, Angel, Angelus (agreed, btw, that he'd want the sex both with the souled and the soulless version) and Gunn but not Cordelia - have I been getting to you?Not at all. My continued adoration for Wesley/Cordelia as a 'ship is and has always been qualified by (a) the recognition that they're too dense to actually realize they should be together and (b) my insistence that, between the first act of "Waiting in the Wings" and "You're Welcome", Cordelia does not actually exist. I've been mindwiped on the subject, much like the S5 gang re: Connor. In my version, it's Connor who gets pregnant and gives birth to himself. I prefer that to contemplating this version of Cordelia. (My powers of canon-denial are AWESOME; phear me
( ... )
But the one line that really fills me with gnawing rage is when Wesley says he's sorry for, and Angel says (and for once I checked the transcript on this) "it's the first time I ever heard you apologize about anything").
. . .
OMGWTF?????
My reaction exactly! The nerve of him - when has Angel ever apologised for anything?? Everything he has ever done wrong, he has blamed on Angelus. No, I can't start now or I will go off on a rant about personal responsibility. Wesley is all about taking on all of his own guilt and everyone else's, and Angel - gah. GAH!
HE PULLED YOU OUT OF THE OCEAN AND GAVE YOU HIS BLOOD, YOU ASSHOLE.
/immediate irrational and visceral reaction.
*nods so hard my head falls off*
(Wesley's perfect day would probably involve some kind of scenario in which he pretty much has sex with everybody -- at the very least Fred, Lilah, Angel, Angelus and Gunn -- and OMGEVERYBODYWHOWAZEVERMEAN2HIMSAYSTHEYARESORRY!!!!
Mwahahaha! That said, wouldn't everybody's? *g*
Angel doesn't remember/didn't pay attention to pre-
( ... )
Darkness as a great Big Bad plan: yes, exactly. And I loved that it actually stayed for quite a while. That moment when Connor and Cordelia look up and the sun grows pale, then dark entirely? Still chills me.
I also liked Lorne and Angel's chat, what with Lorne saying everything I wanted to say to Angel, and then some. Plus, Cordelia telling Angel to get over it? Rocks. He is having an infantile tantrum, yes, thank you! Glad that it wasn't just me being paranoid.
*g* Yes. I mean, I love Angel, but that "...and I want to tell you.... get over it" was so perfect.
Lilah: will be back.
Glad you feel the Connor love now.*g*
Cool Emily Dickinson phrase.
"what if we solved the problem and had a group hug and everything was sweet and lovely like back in season 2 post-darla?" and then yanks the rug out from under your feet.
And that would be why I think s4, as a whole, is better written than s2, as a whole. I mean, I love s2 right until Epiphany, which I love and hate (the hate part would be Lorne's "oh, don't worry about that lawyer
( ... )
Darkness as a great Big Bad plan: yes, exactly. And I loved that it actually stayed for quite a while.
Yeah, me too. I'm fed up of things being solved almost instantly!
And that would be why I think s4, as a whole, is better written than s2, as a whole. I mean, I love s2 right until Epiphany, which I love and hate (the hate part would be Lorne's "oh, don't worry about that lawyer buffet, those guys were meant to die anyway, and aren't you glad you got rid of the bitch?" speech, plus the fact Wesley, Cordy and Gunn never seem to be troubled by the lawyer buffet again, either
Hmmm, I guess that's been fanwanked in my head, with fanon filling in for canon. But I do see your point.
Quite. It's telling that Wesley basically is early second season Wes again, complete with glasses, and Gunn is early second season Gunn as well, and Fred basically is the nice office girl. Watching this in light of the S5 opener is weird. I mean, seeing as how I had such trouble with the second half of S3, basically I went from S2 (or early S3) to S5 - so
( ... )
I mean, seeing as how I had such trouble with the second half of S3, basically I went from S2 (or early S3) to S5 - so I didn't have a break in character continuity. And seeing the direction that everyone was heading in, and how in S5 they're essentially re-set, it's really quite creepy in retrospect.
Mmmm, yes, though I really think one can appreciate 5 better after 4, because I don't think they're actually reset. And not just because Angel remembers and many of his reactions make no sense if you haven't watched the previous seasons. Also because something like, say, Gunn's pride and joy in being a supersmart lawyer directly hails from the increasing sense of inferiority and failure he had in 4. And as for Wesley, well - I think I'll link you to my two reviews of s5 as a whole.
On to Angel's idea of Cordelia: Therefore, she has to apologise to Angel in his fantasy, essentially for 'stealing' her own sexuality away from him.
Yep, and note that he has her equating his past as Angelus with her sex with his son. Oh, Angel.
Now, 'our' Cordelia would never do that. She might apologise for hurting him inadvertantly, but she'd also point out that who she sleeps with is not his business - especially as they're not together in any way, shape or form. Fantasy!Cordelia instead yields gently - and the sex scene is cringe-worthy, too - in a very womanly fashion. With Connor, she takes charge (even though in the actual sex scene she looks bored out of her skull). She initiates the sex. Here, she yields to Angel. She waits on him. She reassures him. And, in the end, she absolves him of any guilt in staying inside and feeling happy by saying that they have waited long enough.Definitely a wish fulfillment. Also, if this associates Cordy with anyone of Angel's sexual past, it's 17-years-old virgin Buffy, certainly not
( ... )
Yep, and note that he has her equating his past as Angelus with her sex with his son. Oh, Angel.
*grits teeth* That boy needs a good smack, is what he needs.
Definitely a wish fulfillment. Also, if this associates Cordy with anyone of Angel's sexual past, it's 17-years-old virgin Buffy, certainly not Darla. (Maybe Drusilla, though, Dru in the very early days.)
Which makes me think - wait - wait - *massages brain* - Angel's inability to keep Darla post-resoulment (she is the one who pushes him away) makes him, not exactly settle, but maybe pick women/girls who he subconsciously feels more capable of controlling. Darla was always outside his control, but Buffy was young enough to yield to him, fantasy!Cordelia yields, as does human Darla - but not in the way he expects. In S5, we have wolf-girl (I forget her name), who is, similarly, vulnerable and helpless and all to eager to yield to a knight in shining armour.
Comments 9
Actually, the only real comment I have on these two episodes is that any goodwill I had more or less been building toward Angel was pretty much zapped by the dream sequence -- and I think we're supposed to see it as selfish and rather sexist. But the one line that really fills me with gnawing rage is when Wesley says he's sorry for, and Angel says (and for once I checked the transcript on this) "it's the first time I ever heard you apologize about anything").
. . .
OMGWTF????? I even try to ignore the fact that Wesley basically spent the first 3 years of canon apologizing for having the nerve to exist . . .let's even say that the irony's unintentional, that the writers just weren't thinking about that ( ... )
Reply
Also, good old Roger would do more than that. He'd be utterly humiliated by Wesley in chess. Same for Giles and Quentin Travers. They'd totally quote things wrong in Latin as well.*g* But yes. Am amused by you listing Fred, Lilah, Angel, Angelus (agreed, btw, that he'd want the sex both with the souled and the soulless version) and Gunn but not Cordelia - have I been getting to you?
layering it in with the perhaps unintentional implication that Angel doesn't remember/didn't pay attention to pre-betrayal Wesley
Err, I never saw that implied at all, given that Angel's version of Wesley both in Deep Down and here IS pre-betrayal Wesley, complete with glasses. (Wesley doesn't wear these anywhere outside of Angel's head in the last two seasons.) First and early second season Wesley, definitely, and I always ( ... )
Reply
Reply
. . .
OMGWTF?????
My reaction exactly! The nerve of him - when has Angel ever apologised for anything?? Everything he has ever done wrong, he has blamed on Angelus. No, I can't start now or I will go off on a rant about personal responsibility. Wesley is all about taking on all of his own guilt and everyone else's, and Angel - gah. GAH!
HE PULLED YOU OUT OF THE OCEAN AND GAVE YOU HIS BLOOD, YOU ASSHOLE.
/immediate irrational and visceral reaction.
*nods so hard my head falls off*
(Wesley's perfect day would probably involve some kind of scenario in which he pretty much has sex with everybody -- at the very least Fred, Lilah, Angel, Angelus and Gunn -- and OMGEVERYBODYWHOWAZEVERMEAN2HIMSAYSTHEYARESORRY!!!!
Mwahahaha! That said, wouldn't everybody's? *g*
Angel doesn't remember/didn't pay attention to pre- ( ... )
Reply
I also liked Lorne and Angel's chat, what with Lorne saying everything I wanted to say to Angel, and then some. Plus, Cordelia telling Angel to get over it? Rocks. He is having an infantile tantrum, yes, thank you! Glad that it wasn't just me being paranoid.
*g* Yes. I mean, I love Angel, but that "...and I want to tell you.... get over it" was so perfect.
Lilah: will be back.
Glad you feel the Connor love now.*g*
Cool Emily Dickinson phrase.
"what if we solved the problem and had a group hug and everything was sweet and lovely like back in season 2 post-darla?" and then yanks the rug out from under your feet.
And that would be why I think s4, as a whole, is better written than s2, as a whole. I mean, I love s2 right until Epiphany, which I love and hate (the hate part would be Lorne's "oh, don't worry about that lawyer ( ... )
Reply
Yeah, me too. I'm fed up of things being solved almost instantly!
And that would be why I think s4, as a whole, is better written than s2, as a whole. I mean, I love s2 right until Epiphany, which I love and hate (the hate part would be Lorne's "oh, don't worry about that lawyer buffet, those guys were meant to die anyway, and aren't you glad you got rid of the bitch?" speech, plus the fact Wesley, Cordy and Gunn never seem to be troubled by the lawyer buffet again, either
Hmmm, I guess that's been fanwanked in my head, with fanon filling in for canon. But I do see your point.
Quite. It's telling that Wesley basically is early second season Wes again, complete with glasses, and Gunn is early second season Gunn as well, and Fred basically is the nice office girl. Watching this in light of the S5 opener is weird. I mean, seeing as how I had such trouble with the second half of S3, basically I went from S2 (or early S3) to S5 - so ( ... )
Reply
Mmmm, yes, though I really think one can appreciate 5 better after 4, because I don't think they're actually reset. And not just because Angel remembers and many of his reactions make no sense if you haven't watched the previous seasons. Also because something like, say, Gunn's pride and joy in being a supersmart lawyer directly hails from the increasing sense of inferiority and failure he had in 4. And as for Wesley, well - I think I'll link you to my two reviews of s5 as a whole.
Part I
Part II
Reply
Therefore, she has to apologise to Angel in his fantasy, essentially for 'stealing' her own sexuality away from him.
Yep, and note that he has her equating his past as Angelus with her sex with his son. Oh, Angel.
Now, 'our' Cordelia would never do that. She might apologise for hurting him inadvertantly, but she'd also point out that who she sleeps with is not his business - especially as they're not together in any way, shape or form. Fantasy!Cordelia instead yields gently - and the sex scene is cringe-worthy, too - in a very womanly fashion. With Connor, she takes charge (even though in the actual sex scene she looks bored out of her skull). She initiates the sex. Here, she yields to Angel. She waits on him. She reassures him. And, in the end, she absolves him of any guilt in staying inside and feeling happy by saying that they have waited long enough.Definitely a wish fulfillment. Also, if this associates Cordy with anyone of Angel's sexual past, it's 17-years-old virgin Buffy, certainly not ( ... )
Reply
*grits teeth* That boy needs a good smack, is what he needs.
Definitely a wish fulfillment. Also, if this associates Cordy with anyone of Angel's sexual past, it's 17-years-old virgin Buffy, certainly not Darla. (Maybe Drusilla, though, Dru in the very early days.)
Which makes me think - wait - wait - *massages brain* - Angel's inability to keep Darla post-resoulment (she is the one who pushes him away) makes him, not exactly settle, but maybe pick women/girls who he subconsciously feels more capable of controlling. Darla was always outside his control, but Buffy was young enough to yield to him, fantasy!Cordelia yields, as does human Darla - but not in the way he expects. In S5, we have wolf-girl (I forget her name), who is, similarly, vulnerable and helpless and all to eager to yield to a knight in shining armour.
Reply
Leave a comment