I do think that was likely part of it, and I understand -- I think there's a sort of... push for porn, in fandom (although, I also often feel like it's a push for the line between "porn" and "but not too raunchy", which I always find sort of depressing. Fandom wants it's cake and eats it too, this is not news), and so I totally understand wanting to assure yourself, or other people like you that this! This is hot too! Really!
But it's the move from there to "infact, it's BETTER, because you're SMARTER" is just... really hurtful, and counter productive in general.
No, I actually really agree. Even in real life, I'm much more comfortable watching porn -- which is clearly intended for an audience -- than I am watching people snuggle and make out, which is something personal, for them.
And I do understand that (in fact I am having to have a discussion over on DW right now about how that is not at all what I was trying to say); I'd be defensive too! (Like I... am about the value judgment that hardcore is easy)
But there's a difference between "what I have drawn is good and worthwhile and took effort" and "it is better than what other people do", which is where it gets problematic.
And yes. TIME ON YGALLERY HAS PROVED explicit != shorthand for good, but nor is it shorthand for anything. It is only what it is. ^__^
Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what you have to post. I enjoy well done hardcore images, such as the ones you produce.
While many hardcore images do try to trade off on just being explicit, people who dismiss them all out of hand because of that are missing the point. Just because it is possible to be lazy with hardcore and still find an audience doesn't mean that *all* hardcore is lazy. That's like saying that the success of, say, superhero comics means that all comics are about superheroes. Well, okay, maybe not exactly, but the logic jump is similar.
That is true -- it is easier to get a pass on skill for porn, if all people care about is porn, but that does not mean that all porn is skilless, as you say.
hardcore was lazy, was not art, because it takes so much more talent, so much more creativity and thinking to make something hot, without going to the shortcut of "cock". On the other hand, there's a lot of softcore that's lazy and not erotic. And that's not even accounting for personal taste; my erotica isn't my coworker's erotica, isn't my neighbor's fetish. :/ So for anyone to come out with a blanket statement like that, it's not... fair, exactly. To all sides. I mean, to people who prefer softcore, they may well find it to be more of a challenge to pull off in a way that appeals to their tastes, so their statement is true for them. For others -- like yourself -- it's different.
So draw what you like, and what you find sexy. :) It's like writing, and other art, and... well, anything creative that's subjective by the viewer as well as the original artist. You win some, you lose some. And I, for one, like your art. :)
(For some reason, I've been having a weird art day since this morning too -- what's up with that?)
Right. But it's not even that I don't appreciate softcore, because I do! I think it's pretty hot, myself. But it's not something that I personally enjoy creating, and so I don't. That doesn't mean I'm working any less hard, nor does it necessarily mean I'm working any harder, so. No, as you say, it's not a very fair statement to make.
Thank you ♥
Hm, strange! Something about the position of the moon maybe >->;
that icon will kill me dead of hilariousnessrabbitprintSeptember 4 2009, 01:18:06 UTC
But it's not something that I personally enjoy creating, and so I don't. That doesn't mean I'm working any less hard, nor does it necessarily mean I'm working any harder, so. Right! I meant that, except that words got in the way. :(
Personally -- ironically -- I find the craftsmanship itself to be erotic, but I might be very demented in the head from too many paint fumes. (By craftsmanship, it's not just technical for me either; something can be very erotic and not be by-the-book execution perfect.)
I really do love what you produce! :D Don't get too discouraged. I mean -- I know how there's always going to be criticism, and even when you remind yourself of that, it doesn't really help. But if it helps, I like what you do. There's a spirit in it, a freshness and liveliness that always is appealing. Explicit cock or not
( ... )
IT IS THE SPIRIT OF COOPERATION that icon |DjpegasusSeptember 4 2009, 01:25:59 UTC
I think I understand. I really like seeing in-progress sketches, and usually have to fight with myself whether or not I'm going to leave the wireframe work on low opacity over the finished image, sometimes. And yeah, stylized stuff is often really sexy -- I like art that emphasizes hands/finger bones, even if I am bad at reproducing such things, myself.
It does help, thank you. I mean, it is pretty much always nice to hear that somebody likes what you do, right?^____^
Well... less crazy assistant is good, but ugh. Hopefully you get some time off soon? Or do you have to work through labor day as well?
Things are good here! I am sort of... digging my heels in about going back to school. I know I should be excited, but I have also really enjoyed the time off. In about two weeks we will be going out to the east coast for a week of Pirate Beach Adventure with ilyat which I am so excited for. It doubles as my birthday present :3
( ... )
While it is true that it takes a lot of skill to make softcore sexy, it also takes an impressive amount of skill to make hardcore sexy too, I think. Everyone's seen at least one hardcore thing that, even if it's not that strange in terms of what it's depicting, for some reason or another it's like OH GOD I DID NOT WANT TO SEE THAT. Just in the same way that good softcore makes people want to imagine what comes next or what's not shown, good hardcore shows people what they wanted to see, regardless of if they knew they wanted to see it that way or not.
(Also I am amused at this being posted at dreamwidth with 69 comments. Because I am a 16 year old boy 69 LOLOLOL.)
This is true ^_____^ And, like, I don't want to give the impression that I think I draw amazing hardcore or anything -- maybe people DO look at it and go OH GOD DID NOT WANT -- and that's fine; not everything is going to appeal to everyone. But I do, at least, work hard, and whether or not someone likes what I've done, that does not change.
Haha, I know. That 69th comment was me replying to someone, and I ALMOST mentioned it, but then I thought BUT THAT WOULD GIVE HER IMPETUS TO REPLY.
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But it's the move from there to "infact, it's BETTER, because you're SMARTER" is just... really hurtful, and counter productive in general.
No, I actually really agree. Even in real life, I'm much more comfortable watching porn -- which is clearly intended for an audience -- than I am watching people snuggle and make out, which is something personal, for them.
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(The comment has been removed)
But there's a difference between "what I have drawn is good and worthwhile and took effort" and "it is better than what other people do", which is where it gets problematic.
And yes. TIME ON YGALLERY HAS PROVED explicit != shorthand for good, but nor is it shorthand for anything. It is only what it is. ^__^
Reply
While many hardcore images do try to trade off on just being explicit, people who dismiss them all out of hand because of that are missing the point. Just because it is possible to be lazy with hardcore and still find an audience doesn't mean that *all* hardcore is lazy. That's like saying that the success of, say, superhero comics means that all comics are about superheroes. Well, okay, maybe not exactly, but the logic jump is similar.
Reply
That is true -- it is easier to get a pass on skill for porn, if all people care about is porn, but that does not mean that all porn is skilless, as you say.
Reply
On the other hand, there's a lot of softcore that's lazy and not erotic. And that's not even accounting for personal taste; my erotica isn't my coworker's erotica, isn't my neighbor's fetish. :/ So for anyone to come out with a blanket statement like that, it's not... fair, exactly. To all sides. I mean, to people who prefer softcore, they may well find it to be more of a challenge to pull off in a way that appeals to their tastes, so their statement is true for them. For others -- like yourself -- it's different.
So draw what you like, and what you find sexy. :) It's like writing, and other art, and... well, anything creative that's subjective by the viewer as well as the original artist. You win some, you lose some. And I, for one, like your art. :)
(For some reason, I've been having a weird art day since this morning too -- what's up with that?)
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Thank you ♥
Hm, strange! Something about the position of the moon maybe >->;
PEE ESS HI HOW ARE YOU? :D
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Right! I meant that, except that words got in the way. :(
Personally -- ironically -- I find the craftsmanship itself to be erotic, but I might be very demented in the head from too many paint fumes. (By craftsmanship, it's not just technical for me either; something can be very erotic and not be by-the-book execution perfect.)
I really do love what you produce! :D Don't get too discouraged. I mean -- I know how there's always going to be criticism, and even when you remind yourself of that, it doesn't really help. But if it helps, I like what you do. There's a spirit in it, a freshness and liveliness that always is appealing. Explicit cock or not ( ... )
Reply
It does help, thank you. I mean, it is pretty much always nice to hear that somebody likes what you do, right?^____^
Well... less crazy assistant is good, but ugh. Hopefully you get some time off soon? Or do you have to work through labor day as well?
Things are good here! I am sort of... digging my heels in about going back to school. I know I should be excited, but I have also really enjoyed the time off. In about two weeks we will be going out to the east coast for a week of Pirate Beach Adventure with ilyat which I am so excited for. It doubles as my birthday present :3 ( ... )
Reply
(Also I am amused at this being posted at dreamwidth with 69 comments. Because I am a 16 year old boy 69 LOLOLOL.)
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And, like, I don't want to give the impression that I think I draw amazing hardcore or anything -- maybe people DO look at it and go OH GOD DID NOT WANT -- and that's fine; not everything is going to appeal to everyone. But I do, at least, work hard, and whether or not someone likes what I've done, that does not change.
Haha, I know. That 69th comment was me replying to someone, and I ALMOST mentioned it, but then I thought BUT THAT WOULD GIVE HER IMPETUS TO REPLY.
Reply
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